I think I bought a fake. Help, please.

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Gavin Richardson, Feb 22, 2018.

  1. Gavin Richardson

    Gavin Richardson Well-Known Member

    So late last night I was scrolling through eBay and saw a coin that looked mighty familiar. Upon closer scrutiny, I realized why it was familiar. It was my coin, which I purchased last year from a VCoins dealer based in Spain. The eBay seller was also Spanish: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Denarius-Julius-Caesar-46-47-BC-Venus-Aeneas-Good-Condition-Scarce/323086289587?_trkparms=pageci:b2689356-17d9-11e8-ae37-74dbd180e981|parentrq:bdd702eb1610a86676b365dcfff2941a|iid:1&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236

    IMG_2191.JPG

    TOP COIN IS MINE; BOTTOM IS CURRENT EBAY LISTING.

    At 3.28, my coin was a little light for the type; CNG has several between 3.71-3.98. But I didn't think anything about the weight of the coin since I had no reason to doubt it initially. Plus, I don't know enough about weight to know if a .5 gram difference is statistically significant.

    I am sad and angry to see the eBay listing and doubt my coin. Some of you have purchased fakes before and understand that it comes with the territory. But this is my first significant fake, aside from a comically bad LRB I got in a bulk lot 20 years ago. This coin was also #1 on my Top 10 list from last year. :(

    I understand that Spain is becoming the new Bulgaria when it comes to fakes, but I thought that purchasing from a VCoins dealer serve as a reasonable guard against purchasing a fake. I guess I was wrong.

    I thought about the possibility of a die match accounting for similarities, but the coins exhibit the same off-center reverse strike and, most obviously, the same “E” graffito on the obverse, just in front of Venus’s face.

    Here’s one thing that’s really weird. Even the flan seems to be the same. Look at the small crack at the bottom of Aeneas’s right foot on the reverse. Look at the same ding right behind the bottom of the Palladium. Look at the same obverse dips and curves around Venus’s head, 9-11 o’clock. And of course the graffito, which looks fainter in the eBay coin, as if it’s been filed. Do forgeries reproduce such flan elements? And why forge a coin that has such an obvious unique identifier such as the “E” graffito?

    Help me make sense of what I’m looking at here. Am I right to suspect that my coin is part of a forgery of this type? Is there any way I can still feel good about this coin? How should I proceed?
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
    Paul M., 7Calbrey and Marsyas Mike like this.
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  3. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    :(

    I'm sorry for your misfortune with this coin. Given the current eBay coin, I don't see how yours could not be a fake.

    In the bottom images the coin is photographed at an angle which makes the devices look wider (spread). The lighting could account for the difference in appearance of the graffito, cracks, and various dings. Also, the casting process can also create small differences from coin to coin.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  4. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    I know you guys will keep buying from eBay and every once in a while inadvertently feeding the criminal enterprises that run these rackets, but I'm done with eBay. It's just not worth it to me.
     
    7Calbrey, JDcahill, MisterWD and 2 others like this.
  5. Gavin Richardson

    Gavin Richardson Well-Known Member

    For the record, I didn't buy from eBay. I bought the coin from a VCoins dealer. The coin that raised red flags for me was on eBay, which has caused me to doubt my VCoins purchase.
     
  6. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Well then, the vcoins dealer owes you a refund.
     
  7. IdesOfMarch01

    IdesOfMarch01 Well-Known Member

    Aren't VCoins dealers required to guarantee authenticity? If so, and if this dealer is still selling on VCoins, you should be able to get a refund.
     
  8. Roma

    Roma Active Member

    I'm sorry to say but it is almost certain that you are right.
    Ask immediately a refund, it happened the same to me, a coin bought in 2003 and I realized in 2014 that it was a fake, the seller (still inactivity) sent me a full refund and I sent him the coin back.
     
    Pellinore, Gavin Richardson and TIF like this.
  9. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian

    I once bought a coin that turned out to be a fake from a vcoins dealer. He refunded my purchase - dealers agree to abide by a code of ethics in order to sell their wares at vcoins. Mistakes happen. Just get a refund.
     
  10. Gavin Richardson

    Gavin Richardson Well-Known Member

    Here are the dealer's terms:

    "We proudly subscribe to the VCoins Dealer Code of Ethics... [X] guarantees the authenticity of all of its items without time limit. Ten day return policy on all other sales, assuming item has not been altered. Full refund provided."

    I don't expect a problem. Just a hassle.

    I am happy to return the coin, but I certainly don't want to be out $15 shipping to send back a forgery that was sold to me in the first place. If the dealer wants the coin back, is it reasonable to request that the dealer pay return shipping?
     
    Nicholas Molinari and Curtisimo like this.
  11. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian

    Yes. I've certainly had to pay return shipping on eBay returns, even one to Australia, ouch. So I don't see why a vcoins dealer shouldn't reimburse you for that as well. Fakes are very bad for business, but everyone makes a mistake sometimes. Hell, even CNG makes mistakes. The best thing a dealer can do is return all of your money so that you're not out a single dime, and maybe even give you a discount on your next purchase. That's what I would do.

    It makes you very careful of what you sell. I don't like the fabric of your coin one bit, even without the comparison to the eBay coin. I would have put it into a black box and marked it at least questionable.
     
    Jay GT4, Paul M. and Gavin Richardson like this.
  12. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Although not Vcoins, I once had occasion to return a coin to Naville. The coin had a significant problem which was not disclosed nor was it visible in images. Naville paid for the return shipping. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for or expect this Vcoins dealer to pay for the return shipping. Perhaps stated another way: When you bought the coin, you paid for shipping. They should either refund the original amount you paid (coin + shipping), or refund price of the coin and pay for return shipping.
     
    beef1020 and Paul M. like this.
  13. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

  14. tartanhill

    tartanhill Well-Known Member

    Well, the hair on the two do not look exactly the same to me.
     
  15. tartanhill

    tartanhill Well-Known Member

    Well, the hair looks somewhat different to me. And the angles on the graffiti look a little different.
     
  16. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Looking at the pictures, your coin looks much crisper than the eBay coin (for example, look at the definition of the scratches). Plus there are a couple lumps on the eBay coin that are not on your coin. Is it possible that your coin was the host coin for the fake?
     
  17. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    The angle of the eBay image has caused considerable distortion so you have to correct for that, plus take into account differences in lighting (greater obliquity of lighting will make devices appear to have higher relief, and scratches will look deeper). Casts are not perfect copies either... little imperfections are introduced in every copy.
     
    Andres2 likes this.
  18. Gavin Richardson

    Gavin Richardson Well-Known Member

    I thought about that possibility as well. But if my coin is associated with a fake at all, it's tainted for me.

    This particular coin type is important to me. I teach THE AENEID every semester and always show related coins. Host coin or not, if I keep this coin and use it in lecture, I'm always going to have a question in the back of my mind about whether it's real or not.

    I share JA's concern about the silver quality, but at time of purchase I didn't feel I had handled enough denarii to know the variations of what can happen to 2000 year old silver. And I still don't. Again, I just assumed that the VCoins dealer knew more than I did, and I was not inclined to question the dealer.

    And to be clear, I accept JA's observation that even dealers make mistakes. I'm not alleging anything nefarious on the dealer's part. I will contact him today and let you know how it goes. Thanks to all for the responses so far.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  19. AngelDeath

    AngelDeath Well-Known Member

    They are not the same don't be PARANOID! Like me!!!
     
    Gavin Richardson likes this.
  20. Gavin Richardson

    Gavin Richardson Well-Known Member

    Ha. I think the E obverse graffito is pretty dispositive on this one. Hard to imagine two separate, authentic coins with the same precise off-center reverse, epsilon graffito, and flan imperfections. Either one coin is fake, or they both are. I can't feel good about having this coin in my collection, unless it's in a Black Cabinet. But I'm not going to pay a couple hundred dollars for a Black Cabinet coin.
     
  21. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

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