FBI Raid seizes Liberty Dollars

I think you're right about the different sides part.
I don't see this as a fight, or even an argument.
I'm just trying to understand.
Sure, let's agree to disagree.

 

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Ok, smart a&& question. Can I write my bank routing number and account number on the side of a cow and remit it as payment? Long long time ago I want to say that it was legal.


Sorry y'all alternative money questions seemed to get too serious and I wanted to lighten it up with a little oddball semitruths

 

this is why the liberty dollar is a joke...why WOULD you do this. Not to mention they are taking fiat money for the coins...something they are supposed to be against.

As for precious metals in the money...thats been a problem for the US from the first minting of US coins...eventually the metal in the coin is worth more than the denomination and as in the case of earlier US coins, they get shipped off and melted to sell. Its just a huge problem to mint circulating currency in precious metals...I dont like a fiat system where worth is placed on money due to some convoluted contrived system either so the only real way to handle the situation is to continue to use paper money and representative, lesser metal coinage for circulation as a representation of real silver and gold...money that is backed by something, like a silver certificate.

 

You certainly can - according to the totally fictitious case of Inland Revenue v Haddock, originally written by AP Herbert for the English humor (or should I say humour?) magazine Punch; and included in the collection of satirical pseudo cases in his very funny 1989 book Misleading Cases in the Common Law.

 

I had to take a detour and read that "case"-- it's udderly hilarious.

 

I'd like to see your authority for stating that the Federal Reserve System check clearing rules, which specify size limits and micr printing requirements are not enforced.

If you believe that the "negotiable cow" story is true, check it out again at the link I posted.

 

I'll bet it was cashed at the bank branch it was drawn on, and did not have to go through the clearing house, so Reg. CC wasn't appliicable.

(Last and final comment by me on this off-topic subject.)

 

Does this mean Liberty dollars are now a rare collectable?

 

I don't know how rare, but between Nov 13th and Nov 16th, the selling prices on eBay jumped about 500%.

 

now how come i dont know these things before it happens i could use some money to help rid of my yearly defecit

 

I don't know much about the grassroots methodologies on this, but the US govt, just makes more laws to make it increasingly illegal to do anything that would make a profit based on the metal content.

Case in point:

http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/index.cfm?flash=yes&action=press_release&ID=724

Why would the govt bother, as their aren't too many people running around collecting and melting down their nickels and pennies? The following ABC link had two good points

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=2725597&page=1

1. Prevent US currency from being shipped as metal scrap to countries such as China.
2. "...if just 1 percent of all the nickels and pennies that are in circulation were melted down, taxpayers would have to foot a $43 million bill."

$43 mil might not be much in the grand scheme of govt budgets, but its more than I care to pony up for....my taxes are high enough already

 

i see your point lawdogct, but for the US govt... i mean come on! 43 millions is nothign to them. They waste more then that on their yearly supply of dental floss cleaner. If they actually cared about how they waste money, they wouldnt have fought the line item veto that gave to clinton (but thats a different discussion) they dont care about losing 43 million on the melting of anything. and if the coins were melted, the cent has an attrition rate of nearly 100%, meaning they do not circulate after being used once. so for each penny minted the govt has to mitn another toreplace it. so dos it really matterif that cent was melted or stashed in a sock drawer?

 

I think the charges they hit with are probably completely bogus. Mail fraud, wire fraud and money laundering are charges the government likes to use to harrass people when they don't have a strong case because they can be used to mean almost anything and as such are very hard to defend against. You will find them trown into a great many federal indictments for that reason.

What did they do that was actually illegal? Title 18 section 486

Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal

Whosoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or any other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States, or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined not more than $3,000 or imprisoned not more than five years,or both.

Note the highlighted text. Once Norfed went beyond barter and put a denomination on their coins and suggested using them as PAYMENT they ran afoul of this law since they were advocating using them as current money. And since they made and distributed them (uttering) and are not authorized to do so by law, they are guilty. It doesn't matter that their recent designs are nothing like current US coins because the law covers coins or original design as well. And the copper ones are illegal as well because the law covers coins of any metal or alloy.

Also note this clause " or attempts to utter or pass" this also means that anyone who actually tried to use one of these coins as a cash payment is also guilty of vialating this law.

 

Condor, good research. That would seem to apply in this case, making the sale of liberty dollars for use in commerce an illegal activity. I wonder when Title 18, Section 486 was implemented? Civil War and Hard Times tokens circulated without interference in their day.

 

Chuck-E-Cheese tokens circulate in our day. What's the difference?

 

Would that allude to any of us paying for our purchases with a mixture of US and canadian coinage? or US and mexican coinage? or even including mexican, korean, canadian or some other country's coins in the rolls we turn into the bank?

I am sure there are game tokens from somewhere out there that are similar in size to circulating coinage that can be substituted into rolls on occasion. In that case, the tokens circulate

 

It was last amended in 1994 by Public Law 103–322.

It was originally adopted, in substantially the same form it exists today, on March 4, 1909, as Chapter 321, §167, 35 Statutes 1120; codified in the 1940 version of the US Code as §281 of Title 18, and recodified under its current section number in the 1948 code revision adopted as Chapter 645 , 62 Statutes 709.

Chuck-E-Cheese tokens are issued and redeemed by the operator of the pizza parlor chain, and do not circulate as money. If the law had been in effect during and immediately after the Civil War, most hard times tokens would have been in violation.

 

Why does this not surprise me?

Oh, I meant to add that I can't understand why someone would spring for NorFed's "currency" when they would probably be a lot better off if they bought something like common AU/BU Peace Dollars instead.