Late Roman fractional denominations

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Valentinian, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    Under the tetrarchy and later there were some rare fractional denominations. This coin of Diocletian is only 14 mm.

    DiocletianFractionVOTXXAVGG800.jpg
    Diocletian, AD 284-305
    14 mm. 2.00 grams. The small "1/8 follis" denomination.
    DIOCLETI-ANVS AVG, head right laureate
    VOT/XX/AVGG in wreath
    RIC VI Trier 610a.
    Zschucke 4.2
    Struck c. September 303 [RIC and Zschucke agree]
    for the festival occasion celebrating vows for twenty years.

    I just put up a web page on these fractional coins:

    http://augustuscoins.com/ed/VOTA/fractions.html

    If you read it and have anything to suggest, PM me.

    If you have any of these small fractions from Diocletian through Constantine, show us!
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
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  3. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    Very interesting article, thanks for putting it together. Going to have to be on the lookout now since I don't have an example.
     
  4. bsr045

    bsr045 Well-Known Member

    Just learned about these yesterday, and have one in my collection!

    Diocletian Carthage:
    20180104_172506.jpg 20180104_172454.jpg
     
  5. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    The pieces from Carthage are larger and radiate (not laureate) and of the common "post-reform radiate" denomination which often has CONCORDIA MILITVM as its type. I like the issue from Carthage. It has VOTA types for all four members of the first tetrarchy (Diocletian, Maximian, Constantius, and Galerius), so it makes a nice set.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  6. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    How do you determine that a fraction is 1/4 or 1/8 rather than 1/5 or 1/10? The last I read suggested the radiate was 2/5 of the full follis but I do not know if that is a theory or something derived from solid records.

    My only Vota is from Carthage like bsr045's radiate coin. Laureate and half that size are these Genius fractions of Galerius and Constantius from Siscia. You call them "larger" but mine are 2.2 and 2.3g and a quick scan of your examples suggests a wide range of weights as might be expected from non-silver bearing coins. RIC calls them 1/4 folles but I do not know on what basis. They were not issued silvered as I understand the matter. No? Since the silvered, full folles were silver bearing (4.7% or less) there seems to be little value allowed for the silver depending on what date is assigned to the fractions. I find the whole matter of the fractions incomprehensible. Were they coins or special purpose tokens (obviously this question is lifted from the Anonymous Pagan 'fractions' which I can't assign a certain place in the system either)?
    Galerius ru4020bb2327.jpg
    Constantius I
    ru3920bb1871.jpg
     
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  7. 7Calbrey

    7Calbrey Well-Known Member

    Weighing only 0.67 g., the following bronze coin under Emperor Arcadius was struck in Antioch. It has Victory on reverse with Salus Republicae as legend. There's also a very prominent Cross.

    ArcaSal O       Cross.JPG ArcaSalus R       Antioch.JPG
     
  8. lrbguy

    lrbguy Well-Known Member

    I do not have one of the post-reform fractions such as you show, but from the standpoint of size and weight, you might wish to show it alongside the pre-reform predecessor to the 1/8. Here is a AE quinarius of Diocletian, weighing in at 1.40g and 15mm:
    dio01-ps475-sm.jpg

    The quinarii are laureate, as is your post-reform counterpart, Warren. Could we get BSR045 to state the size and weight stats on his post-reform radiate? I find it hard to believe that they would issue the same denomination both laureate and radiate at the same time. On the other hand, two denominations in bronze for the same function (donatives on the occasion of the Vota?) is as Doug says, confusing.

    Nonetheless, the precedent is found in the pre-reform coinage of antoniniani, denarii, and quinerii with only token silver. BTW my understanding is that normally the post-reform folles were to be without silver and hence larger than the antoniniani they replaced. I too have plenty of silvered examples, and they are confusing to me as well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
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  9. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Here is a 1/4 follis of Severus II, Siscia mint...from what I understand these are a bit rare


    severus1.jpg

    severus2.jpg
     
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  10. bsr045

    bsr045 Well-Known Member

    The Diocletian I posted above is 2. 3g 19mm

    Another fraction from tetrarchy:
    Constantius as Augustus 18mm,2.5g
    20180110_180849.jpg 20180110_180833.jpg
     
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  11. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    Yes, that is from the same series. They are often called "quinarii," but without any evidence that is the right name. I have used that name myself. What can you call these unusual small pieces when you don't know their name? My fractions pages discusses that.

    The post-reform radiates (mostly CONCORDIA MILITVM) were without silver and therefore worth less than the "aureliani" (often called "antoniniani") they look like, but the folles (nummi) had about the same proportion of silver (some are even marked "XXI") that the pre-reform "aureliani" did, making the follis worth much more than the previous radiates because it is so much larger.

    If you want to know how they are related, as I wrote on my page, at the end in the references, there are many articles in the literature. Some are deceptively certain they can tell you how many of this denomination are in that denomination, but I assure you there are others who disagree and come up with different numbers.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  12. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    Here is a page on those "quarter-follis" coins, issued only at Siscia.

    http://augustuscoins.com/ed/qf/

    They are about 19 mm, much larger than then 13-14 mm fractions on the OP page. "Quarter-folles" make a good series to collect because there are only ten types and you can get them all without breaking the bank. They used to be "rare" before the 1990s, but then the Iron Curtain came down and many came flooding out that the West had not known about before. I know a collector who had 244 of them a couple of years ago. He may have more by now.
     
  13. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Cool thread @Valentinian! Here is my quarter follis from Siscia.
    Maximianus_Quarter_Follis_305-6.jpg
     
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  14. Andres2

    Andres2 Well-Known Member

    I have 3 quarter folles ?? of Constantius II , weighing 1,3 / 1,4 and 1,5 gram
    This is the light 1,3 gram:

    P1180150bb.jpg
     
  15. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    Great page on an interesting topic, not to mention a really impressive collection of those rare fractions.

    The only one I have is this Constantine as Caesar.

    Constantine - as Caesar Vota Trier Mazzini 2573.jpg CONSTANTINE I, as Caesar
    AE Quarter-Follis. 1.82g, 16.7mm. Trier mint, AD 306-307. RIC VI Trier 750; Mazzini 748 (this coin). O: FL VAL CONSTANTINVS NC, laureate, cuirassed bust right. R: VO/TIS/X in three lines within wreath.
    Ex Giuseppe Mazzini Collection (1883-1961)
     
  16. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    I have/have had a few fractions.

    Diocletian
    Bronze denarius communis
    Obv:- DIOCLETI-ANVS AVG, laureate head right
    Rev:- VTILITAS PVBLICA, Utilitas standing facing, head left, hands in drapery.
    Minted in Rome (T in exergue). A.D. 294 - 295
    Reference:- RIC VI Rome 48 (Rated R2).
    1.43 gms. 16.68 mm

    [​IMG]

    Constantine the Great
    Half Follis
    Obv:– CONSTANTINVS AVG, Laureate, cuirassed bust right
    Rev:– MARTI CONSERV, Mars helmeted, in military dress, spread cloak, standing, right, holding reversed spear, left hand leaning on shield
    Minted in Trier (// PTR). A.D. 310 - 311
    Reference:– RIC VI Trier 897 (S)
    1.84gms. 9.7mm

    [​IMG]

    I have some post abdication fractions too.

    Maximianus Herculius
    Half follis
    Obv:– DN MAXIMIANO FELICIS, Laureate and mantled bust right, holding olive-branch and mappa
    Rev:– PROVIDENTIA DEORVM, Providentia standing right, extending hand to Quies standing light, holding branch and leaning on scepter
    Minted in Alexandria (Delta //ALE). A.D. 308
    Reference:– RIC VI Alexandria 91a

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    I have only a couple Fractionals:

    RI Severus II 306-307 CE AE18 Quarter Folles Siscia mint Obv-Rev.jpg
    RI Severus II 306-307 CE AE18 Quarter Folles Siscia mint

    RI Severus II 306-307 CE AE18 Quarter Folles.jpg
    RI Severus II 306-307 CE AE18 Quarter Folles
     
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  18. Jovian363

    Jovian363 Well-Known Member

    Quarter folles from Siscia were definitively silvered, as could be seen on some better preserved examples, like the two below. Click for enlargement. MaximianusQF_silvered.jpg MaximinusQF_silvered.jpg
     
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