A Time in Circulation to Grade Ratio

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by ArthurK11, Jan 5, 2018.

  1. ArthurK11

    ArthurK11 Active Member

    I've always wondered how long it takes for a coin in circulation to reach various grades. Is there a ratio out there that shows how much time a coin has been in circulation and what grade it should have? Or how much a coin wears out based on how much time it's been in circulation? For example a coin that has been in circulation for 20 years will be XF and a coin that has been in circulation for 100 years will be VG. It's always interesting how some cents from 1793 are about as flat as can be while others are mint state. And how some early 1900s silver is worn out pretty well, while other coins from the same dates aren't.
     
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  3. cladking

    cladking Coin Collector

    Best Answer
    This is a very complex question and the answers you seek can't be formatted into a single post.

    Each type of coin (date, mm, design etc) will circulate differently based on countless variables mostly having to do with the behavior of the group that uses them. Each also starts out is a pattern where individuals with similar characteristics (successive strikes perhaps) end up in similar locations and then begin a random walk if they aren't being removed by collectors. For most long lived series these patterns and the nature of the walk can vary considerably over time.

    As ArthurK11 suggested the best way to think of this is in "transaction" which I define as each instance of a change in ownership. The nature of these changes and the forces to which a specific coin or type is exposed determines the rate o wear.

    Coins used to jingle in pockets of people doing strenuous work and individual coins would always be exposed to this at least once even before they wore to VF ('32 quarter or instance). High grades exist because the FED and mint didn't rotate stocks and because people collected the coins.

    Now days stocks are recycled and most have a cycle of about three years once they get in storage or are produced. This wears the coins down very evenly over the long term. At any given time there are usually no more than about 7% of quarters in government hands. Most of the rest are "actively" circulating but there are significant percentages that spend an average of a year sitting idle in jars and dresser tops.

    Quarters require an average of about 6 transactions to be knocked out of Unc now and become "sliders". It takes about 20 more to knock a Gem into AU-58 and another 120 to get it to XF. This is not so highly variable as it once was because they are just used to make change now and much of their wear comes from counting machines and being dumped into or spat out by one. Wear came much faster with silver because it was so soft and because it had a very high velocity. It wouldn't been unusual for a quarter to make four transactions a day in 1932 but now they average only about 5 per month.

    Dimes wear a little more slowly due to their lesser weight. As a group they wear much more slowly because they are more likely to sit out of circulation longer.

    It should be remembered that even things like attrition affect coins that remain through various processes. There are only averages and each individual coin is unique. Each series undergoes changes with time and some of these changes and causes can be deduced by studying surviving examples.
     
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  4. sakata

    sakata Devil's Advocate

    I think the question is too vague. What does circulation mean? Exchanged hands every day? Sat in someone's coin jar for most of its life? If we could measure how many commercial transactions it has been used for then perhaps we could get a better guesstimate.
     
  5. ArthurK11

    ArthurK11 Active Member

    I'd say used a few times a week. Sitting in a jar or vault wouldn't count. Something like how many transactions it has been used for would be good too. Basically if it was in your pocket every day, how long would it take to get to X or Y grade.
     
  6. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    I have a 64 Kennedy that’s spent a couple years in my pocket. It started as a high AU/low MS and now it has lost its luster and probably would grade 45 or 50. That tells me that even a soft metal like silver takes time to wear down. However, we should keep in mind that the “workhorse” denominations were real money back in their day and most likely changed hands much more frequently than coins do today. Now even quarters spend a lot of time lying loose on the table or in jars.
     
  7. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    There are a lot of variables. Some denominations circulate more heavily than others. To the extent that coins are used at all in the US these days, one could argue that the quarter is the "workhorse" of commerce, and as such, many show their age over time.

    In bygone days, when coins had more buying power, some types circulated heavily. Look at how many Barber coins are "worn slick" down to AG, Fair, and even Poor condition. They were out there circulating until silver was withdrawn from circulation in the 1960s, so some of that stuff was circulating for 60, 70+ years. You can see the same thing with some early Lincoln Wheat cents when those turn up in circulation nowadays. Some of them have been out there circulating for almost 100 years.

    Spanish colonial silver coins from the 1700s often circulated for more than a century (up until 1857 in this country), so it's not uncommon for small denominations like half-reales and 1-real pieces to have gotten worn flat. I've even heard them called "razor blades" sometimes, they got worn so thin.

    But there are exceptions. Sometimes during transitions, the last year of an old type or the first year of a new type got saved in larger quantities, so there are a lot more high grade examples to be found. (For example, 1883 "No Cents" Liberty nickels, 1938-D Buffalo nickels, etc.) Sometimes a certain date got hoarded by collectors not long after it was issued, also saving a large portion of the mintage from attrition (for example, 1950-D Jefferson nickels). Some coins went into vaults for decades or even a century or more and are therefore common in high grade (for example, many Morgan dollars).

    So there's really not any hard and fast rules across the board.

    Having been a detectorist for a long time, one gets to see an interesting cross section of stuff dropped over time. For instance, I've seen Barber dimes come out of the ground so slick as to be barely readable (likely dropped in the 1950s or early 1960s, though the last Barbers were produced in 1916), but on the other hand, I once watched a buddy of mine (@Aethelred) dig a 1908-D Barber dime on one site that was so pristine it still had mint luster when it came out of the ground! It probably had AU55-AU58 details and can't have been lost much later than about 1910.

    It's interesting to think about all this, isn't it.
     
  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Ask somebody who has ever worked a cash register how many rolls of coins they go through in a single day. In most cases it's a lot - for all the denominations. But what happens to those coins once they have been given out ? Most people don't spend their change, they take it home and throw in a bowl or a jar at the end of the day. Then some time later they'll cash it in either at a bank, or a CoinStar or the local convenience store. Point being as a general rule coins get used and then they sit for some variable period of time.

    The mint claims that the life of a coin is somewhere around 25-30 years, as a general rule. Some get worn out sooner, others later. And that's because of what I described above. But if a coin were carried or used every single day, how long would last then ?

    KSorbo's answer above gives you an example. And I can give you another. I carried this coin in my pocket with 4 quarters, and a pocket knife, every day, 7 days a week, for 7 years. And it had several predecessors that were carried exactly the same way, but for shorter periods of time varying from 1 to 3 years. The rate of wear on all of them was pretty much the same. Each one was purchased brand new.

    AGE.jpg AGE rev.jpg


    When I sold that coin that's what it looked like. I would grade it no better than F15, and it took 7 years of daily carrying for it to get that way.

    Does that answer your question ? No, not really because that coin was carried every day - and most coins are not. And some people think gold is soft, but it really isn't, it actually wears very well as you can see. Just as well as silver I would say. And maybe even as well as clad coins. And I say that because clad coins do not have the relief that gold and silver coins had, so while the metal of clad coins is without doubt harder, since the design is so much lower in relief it would take less time to wear it away. But if clad coins were minted with relief equal to that of gold and silver coins I have no doubt they would last longer, probably a lot longer.
     
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  9. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    I can't give you any specific answers, for the reasons mentioned above.

    I can tell you, however, that you can try to figure this out for yourself using common circulating denominations:

    Go to the bank, and get a dozen rolls of a widely used denomination (quarters probably circulate the most). Sort them out by date. What you'll find is that coins from the 90s are probably still high EF, 80s will be VF+, 70s will be F-VF, and 60s will probably be F at most. If you're really lucky, you might even find some silver. From this simple investigation, you'll get a really good feel for how coins wear as they age and circulate.
     
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  10. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    That would apply to current coins in circulation, but I would argue that coins wore down faster in the past. The change in our pockets has very little buying power so therefore it just sits around before enough accumulates to cash in. But just imagine if each quarter was equivalent to a 5 dollar bill. That was its buying power 100 years ago. I doubt many people back then could have afforded to let their change sit in a jar, because they needed it for day to day expenses, and so each coin changed hands much more frequently.
     
  11. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Doug wins the "classiest pocket piece" award, though one is forced to silently question, "Why?"

    (If the reply is "Just because", well- OK, then- there ya go.)

    Seven years? Wow. I'd lose something like that inside of a week, weep about it for a month, and grind my teeth (If I still had any left to grind) over the loss for the rest of my life. That's a hefty chunk o' gold to go carryin' around in one's pocket!

    PS- from the facial features, I'd say the wear turned Lady Liberty into Spider-Man!
     
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  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Easy answer, when I started, because no one else ever had :) At least not that I've ever heard of. And that particular coin was merely the last in a line of them Rob, there was 4 or 5 one oz AGEs before that one.

    And as I've explained in other posts I also carried them because they were great conversation pieces. Just imagine, somebody says I'll flip ya for it - and you pull one of those out of your pocket to flip !

    I would venture that me carrying those coins over the years - added at least 100 new collectors to the hobby as a result of the interest they stimulated.

    That's why ;)
     
  13. cladking

    cladking Coin Collector

    Best Answer
    This is a very complex question and the answers you seek can't be formatted into a single post.

    Each type of coin (date, mm, design etc) will circulate differently based on countless variables mostly having to do with the behavior of the group that uses them. Each also starts out is a pattern where individuals with similar characteristics (successive strikes perhaps) end up in similar locations and then begin a random walk if they aren't being removed by collectors. For most long lived series these patterns and the nature of the walk can vary considerably over time.

    As ArthurK11 suggested the best way to think of this is in "transaction" which I define as each instance of a change in ownership. The nature of these changes and the forces to which a specific coin or type is exposed determines the rate o wear.

    Coins used to jingle in pockets of people doing strenuous work and individual coins would always be exposed to this at least once even before they wore to VF ('32 quarter or instance). High grades exist because the FED and mint didn't rotate stocks and because people collected the coins.

    Now days stocks are recycled and most have a cycle of about three years once they get in storage or are produced. This wears the coins down very evenly over the long term. At any given time there are usually no more than about 7% of quarters in government hands. Most of the rest are "actively" circulating but there are significant percentages that spend an average of a year sitting idle in jars and dresser tops.

    Quarters require an average of about 6 transactions to be knocked out of Unc now and become "sliders". It takes about 20 more to knock a Gem into AU-58 and another 120 to get it to XF. This is not so highly variable as it once was because they are just used to make change now and much of their wear comes from counting machines and being dumped into or spat out by one. Wear came much faster with silver because it was so soft and because it had a very high velocity. It wouldn't been unusual for a quarter to make four transactions a day in 1932 but now they average only about 5 per month.

    Dimes wear a little more slowly due to their lesser weight. As a group they wear much more slowly because they are more likely to sit out of circulation longer.

    It should be remembered that even things like attrition affect coins that remain through various processes. There are only averages and each individual coin is unique. Each series undergoes changes with time and some of these changes and causes can be deduced by studying surviving examples.
     
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  14. NSP

    NSP Well-Known Member

    Another thing worth considering is that clad coins and silver coins probably wear differently. I’m inclined to believe that a silver-copper alloy would wear faster than a copper-nickel alloy since the copper-nickel alloy is likely harder. Out of curiosity I did a quick eBay search of 1932, 1942, 1952, and 1962 silver quarters with the following assumptions:

    1. Silver quarters did not readily circulate after 1964, so all four dates I checked probably stopped circulating after 1964.

    2. An 1932 quarter in AU obviously didn’t circulate much, so I focused on the more worn coins for each date (e.g. - usually the lowest priced BIN coins on eBay) to get an idea of what a “typical” circulated coin would look like for each date.

    What I noticed is the 1962s were around AU, the 1952s were in the VF-XF range, 1942s were VG-F, and the 1932s were AG-G. This would mean it takes about 30 years for a silver Washington quarter to wear down to around Good. Obviously my 5 minute eBay endeavor is hardly perfect, but it gives a rough picture of how silver coins may wear.
     
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  15. cladking

    cladking Coin Collector

    This is why I never carried pocket pieces for very long.

    It gives you insight into why circulating coinage has such a high attrition rate.
     
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  16. cladking

    cladking Coin Collector

    Clad is also lighter so it usually has lighter coins pressing down on them and always has a lower force beneath it.
     
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  17. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    There are still lots of 1965 Washingtons in circulation and I haven’t seen any that would grade as low as good, although they are very noticeably worn down. There are lots of 1930s quarters in AG (including lots of slabbed 32d’s and s’s)with only 30 years circulation. I think it’s due to a combination of softer metal and more frequent use. Circulation of clads in their first 30 years, up to say 1995, is probably a better comparison because even 20 years ago our economy was more cash based and so quarters would have seen more use.
     
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  18. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Awesome. By way of anecdote (because I'm an extremely anecdotal kinda guy, as you might have noticed), I will share a story.

    When I was not quite 11 years old and had only just started collecting (stamps, coins, rocks, etc), I lived in a boatyard in Fernandina, Florida. The owner of the boatyard had an elderly relative who was always around the place, and this uncle or brother or whatever was an alcoholic nearing his last days. This disheveled old guy had a sketchy vibe and a lot of people avoided him. But for some reason he befriended the skinny kid on the eccentric looking houseboat ... me.

    Now here's where stories like this often turn dark. (Hey, parents- would you let YOUR ten-year-old kid run unsupervised in a boatyard full of industrial equipment and oil drums and rusty scrap metal, and hang out with decrepit drunks? Of COURSE you would! It was the 1970s!) But it all turned out fine. The wizened old wino took a shine to me, and we'd sit around and chat. I might've been one of the only people who'd talk to him. Certainly none of the other kids would go within sight of him.

    One day he showed me his pocket piece coin, which was a 1921 Morgan in probably VF or so.

    It was the first silver dollar I had ever seen, and I was well and truly amazed. I couldn't believe how big around and how thick it was. I used to think half dollars were big! Then the guy gave me a quarter. To me it looked like a regular Washington quarter, not one of the new Bicentennials, so I told him he should probably just keep it and spend it. He chuckled, and then showed me that it was a 1964 quarter, and was silver, and explained why silver was something special.

    God bless you, Mr. Rawls. You were kind to a scrawny kid when you didn't have to be.

    So, yeah. I get it now, about the whole "conversation piece" thing.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
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  19. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    Also some coins wore quicker than others due to design. Why the dateless standing quarters and buffalo nickels. And the barber coins. I don’t think it took a lot of time to go from au to vg. You really don’t see a lot of vf and xf barber coins especially halves. Many bust halves though got stored in bank bags. And where the coins were mattered too. How many s and cc mint seated coins and Morgan dollars have you seen well worn as opposed to their eastern counterparts
     
  20. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    (@cladking proceeds to format many of those answers into a single post)

    Nothing to add here, except to remind everyone that that "Best Answer" link is there for a reason... :)
     
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  21. cladking

    cladking Coin Collector

    There are so many factors, processes, and happenstance that affect the universe of coins and each individual one that a comprehensive listing of them is truly impossible. But a great deal can be deduced from a good representative sample of any coin. Even each individual coin has a great story to tell and secrets to share. Just because a coin is "typical" in most ways doesn't mean it's necessarily boring since no coin is typical in all ways.

    After you look at samples of coins look at price lists and see how value compares to mintages and conditions and you'll see more forces and processes that operated on the coins.

    One of the things I've always liked about circulating coinage is the ability to get a representative sample (except to the degree collectors have influenced it). A handful of clad dimes compared to the mintage figures and their individual conditions can be quite interesting, for instance;

    http://rooseveltdimes.net/roosevelt-dime-mintage/
     
  22. Neal

    Neal Well-Known Member

    When I was 10 or 11 years old or so, back in the early 60s, I earned money at a small town bank by wrapping coins for 1 cent a roll. I would search a bag first, set aside the coins I wanted, and replace them with my pay (unless it was halves or sometimes quarters, which took a lot more). So I literally searched hundreds of thousands of coins over about a 4 year period. Because early standing liberty quarters and buffaloes lost their dates, they circulated until they wore out, but others were removed quickly from circulation by collectors if they were decent dates or just older dates in nice shape. For fun I once assembled two full rolls of dateless quarters, which caused a panic among the tellers because the rolls, and presumably the average coin, by then roughly 35-45 years old, were about 75% of normal weight and thickness. I never saw a Barber quarter and seldom saw recessed date standing liberties, then about 30-35 years old. When I did, they were usually in no better than G or occasionally VG, rarely Fine. Earlier Washington quarters 20-35 were almost never better than Fine and frequently only VG or even less, while the more recent quarters would sometimes be up to AU even at two or three years old. The 1965 clad quarters (over 50 years) I see today are usually better than 20-year-old silver I would see then.

    The buffalo nickels fared better than the silver, and dateless buffaloes were likely to be otherwise G or better, and 1936-38 buffaloes in VF or even XF were not too rare in 1963-65 circulation, perhaps having spent time in jars. On the other hand, if I found a better date, it usually was well worn, indicating collectors were affecting the total population in circulation.

    Mercury dimes were still common, and the wear patterns were similar to quarters. No Barber dimes, and earlier Mercs were usually no better than AG - VG, but again, collectors had made a dent in better dates, and my 1921 and 21 D were low AG. Mercury dimes 1941-45 could sometimes be found that would easily pass for AU or even UNC, but were usually F-VF after 20 years, like many clads after 50 years.

    I was still working in the bank, but as a teller, until 1970, and by then almost all the silver had disappeared.
     
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