So, as a novice I went into my local coin store....

The 1909 S VDB Lincoln Cent

It was my significant other's idea on a day we were supposed to just go shopping for other things.

There is a coin I've been looking at for a few months now, the 1909 S VDB Lincoln Cent. On eBay it appeared to be going for over $800 easily for a VF coin graded.

It is a very reputable store, been around for decades. It probably has well over a couple of million dollars of merchandise, coins, gold and silver bullion, and other things, for sale. This was only the second time I had been there in the last couple of years.

The young man I spoke with when I first entered was very nice. When I told him what I was interested in he told me the store had a few. There was at least one on display that was graded, but I don't remember what the price or grade was, probably over $800. He then asked me if I wanted one graded or ungraded and immediately I told him I would like one ungraded. At some point we also discussed putting the coin on hold with a deposit.

He went to another part of the store and came back with a tray of coins and my eye caught one for $595. He gave me a loop to look at it and kindly reminded me how to use it properly.

Remember, going to this store was all on the fly, and I really wasn't prepared to do any of this. However, we got this far and I figured I could maybe do something now.

I looked at the coin closely, not really knowing what to look for, but it appeared to have all the proper characteristics for the coin. The date and mintmark were clear, and I remember the VDB on the reverse being clear, but I don't recall whether I could read the periods next to each letter.

The low price and condition were the selling points for the coin, and the clerk really didn't try to push it on me in any way.

Now comes the tricky parts of the transaction.

I agreed to put $200 down with the hope of paying off the balance 6 months down the road. He told me right away that it was too long a time to hold something of this nature. He wasn't sure how long they could hold it for and called his manager over to get a date. She agreed it was too long and said that the balance would have to be paid off by 30 days or I would lose my deposit. I have lost money on deposits before but that was a long time ago.

I knew this made sense from the store's point of view but still wasn't comfortable with it. Still I committed to the deal since I really wanted this coin and I have a feeling they are going to be much harder to find in the future.

Of course when I got home I had to do more research on the coin. And of course one of the first things that came to me on the internet about this coin were counterfeits. I didn't have a clue about this when I was in the store and now I am more anxious about the transaction. I could now go back to the store with my new knowledge about the coin (different mintmarks and a proper V.D.B. stamp) and re-evaluate my situation, and I'm sure they would be willing to work with me to make sure I get what I want, but I still don't like that I put myself into this situation.

No, I don't blame my significant other.

So, I'm asking for any information anyone might want to offer (don't buy on impulse, do your research, how to make big purchases easier, should I start with smaller purchases at any coin store, reputable or not).

Also, when it came time to exchange money, the young man said the store would only accept cash. This kind of threw me as an unusual store policy, even for a coin store (I wanted to pay with a debit card). A part of me knew this would be the time to get out of the deal if I really wanted but I also knew that I could cover the cost, so I did.

That was 6 days ago. I'm sure that when I follow up with completing this transaction that all will be well in the end. I will have a legitimate coin that I want in my collection and I will return to this store for future purchases.

Just wanted to share my experience and solicit for any advise I may be able to use in the future.

thanks.

 

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While the 1909-s VDB is a very cool coin, I simply don't buy high end coins for that kind of money without being authenticated/graded.

Could you have the store send your coin out for grading/authentication with pcgs or ngc and pay for it when it comes back from grading?
I don't understand the store not wanting to take a debt card unless they lose money on the transaction like a credit card.

 

Ask yourself this. If that coin is in a condition where it's worth $800 + graded and a store who relies on profits from coins to stay in business, who could send it to get graded for $20, instead kept it as is for $595, why did they do that?

Not saying it's fake, if they're reputable it's probably authentic. You're just probably getting what you're paying for.

 

Agreed that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Other thoughts - are members of the store members of ANA, PNG, etc.?

 

Someone having a shop does not make them an expert in grading or detecting counterfiets/doctored coins. Yes some shop owners can do it, but many cannot.

Without knowing what one should be looking for they shouldn't be buying raw coins of value especially not the key dates and the ones that have been counterfitted and altered the most.

That's kind of shady in all honesty. Basically no store front operates cash only now a days. I can understand them charging you for the credit card fees, but you just bought the most counterfeited and messed with coin there is raw with cash which means you have no recourse and just your word against the stores. I don't have high hopes for how this will end. If you can get out of the deal I would as fast as possible. There's a reason the coin is ungraded and cheaper than it should be, at best it's probably a details coin

 

If a expensive coin (more than a few hundred) is outside of my area of comfort zone of what I know well, I go with third party graded coins. It is a small price to pay to avoid large catastrophic mistakes. As said above there is no such thing as a free lunch and no dealer is going to pass up several hundred dollars difference in value to undersell to you.

 

I would not assume an established reputable coin dealer would be selling counterfeit. However, when asked if you want a certified or raw coin, I would have translated that to mean do I want a genuine non-problem gradable coin vs. genuine, but problem (cleaned, damaged) coin in a details slab. Both might be genuine, but I’ll pick the non-problem gradable coin every time.

 

And the vast majority never would, the problem though is that when were talking about the most altered/faked pieces some are good enough to fool some dealers. They may not knowingly ever do it but there really are some pieces that need to either be certified or would be much safer buying from a specialist dealer if raw

 

I was going to say exactly that.

I would add that it's a very small price to pay for the 'insurance' it gives you, and if it comes back 'not genuine', you have an easy out. Better to find out before you take delivery then after.

If the shop says they won't do it, and you really want an '09-S VDB, tell them you'd like to switch to a graded coin. If all of their gradeds are outside of your budget, try and cancel the sale. In a show of good faith, give them $50 or some amount for their troubles.

 

What is the grade and the current greysheet price? Has it been cleaned or have any scratches? Have verdigris? There are plenty of reasons for a coin to be reduced from the price that you see on eBay. My local dealer is a one man shop, so he just doesn’t bother with eBay since he just doesn’t have time and his prices are generally lower.

 

There is a user on this very forum (I don't remember the name, sorry!) who gave me a known counterfeit 1909-S VDB cent because he knows I teach the Boy Scout merit badge for coin collecting. He wanted me to use it for that purpose, and I do!

He had once been fooled by the coin and sent it to either NGC or PCGS for slabbing, but it came back as a counterfeit. I'd hate to learn how much money he lost in the transaction.

The company was kind enough to denote how they knew it was a counterfeit -- added mintmark. In other words, the coin had begun life at the Philadelphia mint with no mint mark, but with the VDB initials on the reverse, and someone had added the S.

I looked at the coin with the naked eye, and despite KNOWING the mint mark was added, I couldn't see it. So I examined it with my 10X loupe and STILL COULDN'T TELL! This was a well-made counterfeit, which is undoubtedly how our friend got taken by it!

This all said, I'm not a cent expert. A cent collector may have been able to tell from the shape of the mint mark or its positioning that it was added, but I do not have that expertise; I was merely looking to see how the slabbing company knew it was added.

I have an inexpensive digital microscope I hooked up to my computer and looked at that mint mark through it. THEN I could see it, magnified many times on the size of my computer screen. There was a seam between the mint mark and the field on which it rested, indicating it had been added after minting.

As the person who gave it to me wanted, I show this to Boy Scouts to demonstrate how difficult it can be to detect alterations of this kind, and to emphasize buying only certified coins when you are talking about keys.

 

Just from personal experience, the Shop I work at ONLY accepts CASH. This is in part due to the owner being screwed by CC companies, but also because he is just Old School and a little eccentric (to say the least.)

Personally, I always pay cash for coins, bullion, etc. Also, I never buy anything that I cannot pay for at the time of purchase. It is better to save up and buy exactly what you want and get it the same day.

Just my 2-Cents.

 

Is it a normal policy for someone to steal your deposit money if the deal doesn't go through? Sounds like a pawn shop.

 

It’s not unheard of. It really just depends what the terms of the deal were

I should have probably had a geographic disclaimer, that certainly does still happen in more country locations. Most I’ve seem will at least do the PayPal square if someone is willing to cover the fee.

 

Hey Mac , so glad you're getting some good use from that coin. Sincerely happy you are able to get some positive use from it. Carry on friend.

 

Of course it's perfectly okay for a collector to waste the dealer's time and tie up his money. Hey, as long as the collector doesn't ever have to suffer consequences or shoulder any level of personal accountability, all is well with the world...

 

Wow. I want to thank all for the posts of incite and wisdom. As it is now I went through with the purchase and feel pretty good about it. Enclosed are some photos of what I got for $600 and if anyone sees a glaring red flag that I should know about then please do so.

Again, thanks to all

 

Appears cleaned. All of the fields and Lincoln are all shiny,
but where the date and the letters are you can see residual crud that was not cleaned away. Plus the scratches. Just an opinion.
If this has been improperly cleaned, then you over paid.

 

Need better pics, I'm not liking the mint mark in those shots

 

You need to get "Bill Fivaz's" Counterfeit Detection Guide book. This will give you a update on things to look for on many high priced coins. Now that you have the coin, you can get this book and know for sure on many high coins. This book that I have, was printed in 2001, and I do not know of an update. On page 6, 1909svdb coin 1. The "S" mintmark have serifs which are vertical and parallel to each other. 2. A small die chip is usually visible at the inside back of the upper loop of the "S". 3. High grade specimens will often show a depression in the upper serif of the "S". 4. The center crossbar of the "B" in the V.D.B. on the reverse must be diagonal, not horizontal. I hope this helps.