Mercury dimes and Fascism

I suppose the dime was changed in 1946 to honor FDR, shortly after his passing. This timing is similar to the Ike dollar and the JFK half.

We didn't change the symbolism earlier because it hadn't become associated with something else in our minds. European fascism is their problem, and has no impact on our coinage.

And as far as the fascism itself - we didn't start it, but we sure paid dearly to end it. My grandfather died as a result of mustard gas inhalation in Europe.

 

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IMO
Time to change the Kennedy and FDR coin around to long. Bring back the Franklin half for the collectors and maybe a Indian type coin for the dime

 

I know all about the fasces and the lictors, and I am annoyed with people for thinking I am a conspiracy theorist...my point is-why did they continue to make the coins when they were at war with fascism (not that the symbol was originally fascist when it was first used). It was almost the equivalent of having swastikas on the coins...and the Allies were pretty strict on getting rid of facist symbolism after the war..... ??

 

I'm sorry about everyone who has been confused, but this was meant to be a serious point...

 

Jerome:
As stated above the Merc dime pre-dated fascism by a few years.
Also, the original meaning as displayed in the Merc reverse was for peace, not the dictatorship in Italy during the early 20th century. In addition, the fasces as used in Roman times denoted the sign of a free man. (If I am incorrect someone will quickly correct me.)

Therefore, there was no reason to change the design, since they had nothing to do with each other.

For the record, both your original posting and the one above still seemed to be facetious and that was why you brought out only the best in comments.

 

How about the German Eagle, or the Rising Sun?

There have been a number of serious responses. De Orc and others have detailed the usage of the fasces in American imagery since long before Italy adopted it.

Similar to this debate, there is the issue of the German Eagle (Do a google search for "german eagle") and the Japanese Rising Sun. The eagle has been a central part of American image dating back to the 1700's. Did we abandon the eagle just because the Symbol of the Nazi state was an eagle holding a swastika? No we did not! Similarly, Imperial Japan made wide use of the rising sun imagery, and at the same time, we were minting the Walking Liberty half dollar which depicts the rising sun. It too was left on our coinage.

Our nation has changed a lot in the 90 years since Italy adopted the fasces. In 1919, we were a confident and growing nation. Today, we are a bunch of weak minded fools held captive to the whims of anybody who claims to be "offended" by a word or symbol. The faculties of Women's Studies departments and various race studies departments are now in control of our nation's language and imagery. They are thuggish and exceedingly sensitive, and they profit greatly (both funding and notoriety) whenever they destroy a word or symbol.

You can be excused for seeing the fasces issue as a huge scary problem, because it would be today. Back in 1919, there was no group that profited from the tearing down of American symbols, so it didn't happen with the frequency that it does today.

 

please cite your source for this: "the Allies were pretty strict on getting rid of facist symbolism after the war" why would the Allies have any input on the design of United States coins?

and...

stating that the fasces was no different than having a swastika is silly. US money had eagles, as did German money, as did other nations, just like the fasces. i'm glad we no longer use the eagle, wouldn't want to have something the Nazi's had on their coins....

-steve

 

aj beat me to the eagle - that's what i get for proof reading

-steve

 

You just answered your own question, Jerome. They were not fascist symbols, so why change ?

They were not fascist symbols when first used, nor at any time in this country. They were not fascist symbols, Jerome. I think that's where you're stuck.

Consider this ... should we jump through hoops and change everything based on the whims of some European dictator ? Of course not. It doesn't matter Italy did or didn't do.

 

I'm with ya, AJ. They're exceedingly sensitive... until it's time to offend others.

 

Let's see, today we are probably in trouble for insulting the Nazis and the fascists.

We'll probably be sued by the ACLU.

 

I've been critisized for this website

http://www.nylxs.com

Go figure...

Ruben

 

What the h--l is wrong with your web site?

The wine & cheese or the fact that it is in a church?

Or they just don't like the way that you take pictures?

Dummies everyone of them.
I have found that those who criticize the most can't do anything, except criticize.
(Kinda like my mother in law.)

 

Hey Mods - this thread has gone waaaaaaaay off the coin-related track and needs to be closed, or moved to the appropriate place for discussion of political views.

 

Get it back onto the track then. As others wrote before, there is a big difference between symbols that were/are commonly recognized as those of dictatorial regimes, and others that were or are in fairly common use. The fasces can be found in many contexts in various countries - they are still on the cover of every French passport, for example, as a symbol of controlled power. Why should they have been removed from US coins?

With the swastika it is a little different - it had not been a commonly used element in "political iconography" in Europe or North America before the nazis made it their symbol. Maybe, if a swastika had been on a British or American coin in the 1930s, it would have disappeared by the end of that decade, simply because of the all too obvious connotation. But the fasces, or the eagle, or the stars?

Jerome is perfectly right, by the way, when he writes that the WW2 allies were strict regarding the use of nazi and fascist symbols. But that applied to the occupied countries, where they had been symbols of the dictatorial regimes. After WW2 quite a lot of "nazi eagles" at official buildings in Germany, were de-swastika-ed. Looked kind of strange in various cases when the eagle remained, with a blank circle or an empty wreath in its claws.

Edit -- Darn, I wanted to add a picture of the German 1 Pf 1944 coin with the wreath and swastika removed (Jaeger 373a) but cannot find it ...

Christian

 

In fact to this day the swastica is banned in Germany.

But, we pre-dated the fascists, so there was no need to change our coinage.

 

Uh-oh, we've tripped over somebody's sacred cow. The predictable authoritarian response is to call for an end of the discussion.

However, to counterpoint:
US coinage is created in the crucible of our political system, and it is in fact Congress that decides what images are placed on or removed from our coinage. Therefore, it is pertinent to include a discussion of the evolution of our nation's political system as it relates to the evolution of our coinage.

The fasces would probably not ever be allowed on our coinage today. Similarly, Lady Liberty has been scrubbed from our nation's coinage along with with personal freedom and liberty being demoted by our political leadership. These events are related. Politics is the driver behind many changes in our coinage.

 

I agree whole heartedly. Coins and political figures, situations, and regalia are always going to be intermingled...

Take care
Ben

 

Good points made and might I add IN GOD WE TRUST.

In a country where the Pledge of Allegiance is questioned and prayer in school an issue this motto remains.

Some people find it very offensive yet it remains.