I found myself in an uncomfortable position today: I was at an antiques auction here in the UK. There were a few coin lots including two US dollars advertised simply as an 1879 and an 1880. These were not my particular interest, but I checked them over quickly. They both bore the CC mark for Carson City and were both obviously fake, so I crossed them off my list. When the bidding got underway I was surprised to see any bids at all on these and dismayed to see them bid up into the Hundreds of Pounds bracket. I badly wanted to shout out to prevent these part-time coin collectors from getting burnt, but I lacked the courage. Should I have intervened? Would you?
When you saw they were fake you should have notified whoever was running the auction right then and there so he could pull them.
I have been in the same situation. When I have seen fake coins in an auction, I have notified the auctioneer. You can learn a lot about auctioneers by doing this. Ones which I mentioned this and pulled the lot to be safe I continue to patronize. Unfortunately, most say "thanks" and still auction it of without mentioning the concern. Those auctioneers I refuse to patronize any longer, since I cannot count on the authenticity of anything there if I now know their morals. I got banned from one auction house once. After the auctioneer still sold the coins, I went over to the buyer and told him how I was certain all of the coins were fakes, and in fact had told the auctioneer before the auction but he ignored me. Evidently the buyer was a major purchaser there, and was quite upset. The auctioneer found me and told me to never return. I told him "no problem, I was not going to anyway".
I may have said that I am going straight to the authorities and tell them you are selling counterfeit coins that you know are bogus. That's a felony.
I did bring it to the attention of one of the attendants, who had not looked at them closely before but agreed with me that they did not seem right. As it was my first time at that auction I did not feel confident enough to approach the auctioneer himself.
What happens if you make an outrageous bid? And then are able to tell them they are counterfeit/ illegal.
I, for one, am not familiar with the laws governing the sale of counterfeit coins in other countries. Had this occurred in the US, the auctioneer could be charged with promoting the sale of counterfeit currency. Chris
Millions of fake coins are sold on eBay throughout the world, when reported eBay does naff all. I had a similar problem a few years ago, I told the auctioneer several coin lots were fake, he did nothing, so I told all that looked at them and also performed the rare earth magnet test so they could see. They sold for a low amount and I also told the winning bidder, who refused to pay for them. They were not relisted at the next auction.
I need to go back to the auction tomorrow to pick up another (non-coin related) lot that came at the end. I am tempted to try to collar the auctioneer then. It bugs me that there are so many fakes being sold at local auctions in the UK and the fakers are getting away with it.
I think these fakes were originally purchased on ebay, by the time the buyer realise they are fake its to late. They then sell them at flea markets, car boot sales and some end up in auction houses. I bought a very large collection of valuable world coins from an experienced deceased coin collectors estate. There was a fake CC Morgan and a fake Roman as soon as I started examining them. That resulted in me getting the whole collection far cheaper than I was originally going to offer. Non of the other 5000+ coins were fake
If this is something they have an advertised pattern of doing I am positive there’s an agency in the UK that would be interested in knowing about it. UK has forced eBay to make it right in similar situations where buyers or sellers were scammed or sold fakes and don’t see why they wouldn’t when it comes to an auction.
I see many modern Irish / British coins with fake political counterstamps, and have also run into the problem of what to do about it, Paddy. From long experience with counterstamped coins in general, I have very specific red flags that I look for. I KNOW they're fakes, but would have a problem proving that to an inexperienced collector or to the auction site where most of them show up. It's really become a problem, especially in the past year or two. Recently, I did an informal survey and found of the 19 lots offered 15 were fakes. That's a terrible result, but I wasn't sure what to do about it. I've since written up a short paper, including images, on what to look for when bidding on these things. I've sent it to collectors who might be fooled by them, so am trying to get the word out that way. Other than that, I can't think of another solution. Bruce
Let’s ask a couple of questions. 1. You were pre inspecting coins for your consideration of purchase correct? 2. The coins in question weren’t a type you collect so your no expert. 3. You had other coins to pre inspect during a fixed time so no time to waste. I don’t see a problem at all with how you handled it. You are there for YOU not them. IMO it’s not your job to make sure about anything except what benefits you. I would never say a foreign coin is a fake at an auction. I just dont know enough about any foreign coins to feel comfortable making a big old stink. Just me. You acted just fine. I respect your decision. Reed.
It's really sad how low the moral of people is going down these days... just to make some profit by obvious selling fakes to people, who collect for passion. I think any way acting (whether report or not) is the right way to act, because those people don't care anyway... Someday they will get what they deserve (hopefully)
In the end I did not say anything to the auction house when I returned. I have checked these fakes before - they pass the magnet and weight tests, they just look and feel all wrong and are presumably not silver. (Silver testing does too much damage for the auction houses to attempt on a potentially valuable coin.) So it would have been my unprovable opinion against the vendor and potential buyers. IF the buyers get them checked out and bring them back to the auction house in good time, they will get their money back under the terms of Auction house laws in the UK, BUT I suspect the buyers were private collectors and so it may be years before the fraud is exposed, by which time it will be too late. That is what annoys me most - if a dealer makes an unwise buy, then "caveat emptor" seems fair, but when it is the inexperienced private collector who gets caught...
Sadly, our experience works for us, Paddy, but it doesn't help those who are more easily deceived. I've contacted some fellow collectors with like interests as mine, and offered to give my opinion on anything they may want to bid on. Just my opinion, mind you, but possibly helpful to them. Nothing else to be done that I can think of Bruce
I've only pointed out fake coins at an auction once and they went ahead and sold the coins as genuine anyway. It was a tax sale and the coins were being sold off by the IRS. So they were fakes being sold as real by the US government. (Including a reeded edge 1804 silver dollar that they got over $500 for. They claimed it was one of the restrikes and even referenced the listing for the Type III coins in the Redbook.)
That's a tough one, Paddy. If they kept a bill of sale, they could probably remedy it, if found out. Intervening, though, just a losing proposition.
