Hi guys, What do you think of this piece: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140177442952&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004 What I'm looking for is if you think it's genuine, comments toward the grade, and what are your thoughts about a coin graded by 'National Numismatic Certification'. I'm thinking this will end up a little out of my price range, but I've always wanted to have a territorial piece. Thanks! -StephenS
I would try to stay away from NNC. The seller isn't one I would bid on either. the main reason is because all of his photos are aways washed out. Teletrade has some nice Territorial Gold Pieces and it is free to register. Make sure you add in the bidders % before you bid but most of the time they have some nice ones!! Speedy
The coin appears to be genuine but it is really hard to tell from pictures! The Seller is a high volume Coin Dealer with a high Feedback rating of 99.6% with 32,162 Positive feedbacks from eBay members and and overall positive feeback of 217,677 for all transactions. I believe that NNC was always pretty good at determing authenticity of a coin but their grading varies fairly significantly. I have seen a few coins undergraded by them but most are overgraded. I think that they overgraded in this case and that the coin would only go a VF-35 or maybe an EF-40 at best! However, some TPG's may use grading standards that are more generous when grading rare Territorial pieces. Due to te coin being in an NNC slab, I believe that it will fetch a much lower price than a specimen graded as VF-35 or even VF-30 in a PCGS slab! Frank
I have no experience with gold let alone territorial gold, but I my experience with NNC (Lincoln cents) is nothing but negative. First of all, they are owned by this seller (centsles). Every NNC coin I have bought/seen has been grossly overgraded. You can find more than one thread on this site saying much the same including one where centsles bought a 1923 PCGS MS-64 Saint and then sold it as NNC MS-66. Having said all that, I have bought several coins from centsles (PCGS) and found his service to be more than satisfactory.
Why would someone have something fabulous certified by a third-rate TPG like NNC ? Because it won't pass muster at a top-tier TPG. It seems harshly cleaned, maybe worse. Some were tooled or otherwise damaged. Worst of all, I wouldn't trust NNC to detect an outright counterfeit. These are valuable pieces which trade for $3000+ if legit. Heritage has several past auctions listed; it's hard to get direct price comparisons because of all the varieties. Ya don't get something for nothing - certainly not something with as much historical and numismatic value like this one. I would avoid it.
Bottom line, that is a very valuable coin. Why would anyone send it to NNC? That is the question. Punt.
Yes, that's possible. But one must not forget that there are huge numbers of uninformed collectors out there who think that all grading companies are equal. That NNC and others like them are just as good as NGC & PCGS. And if you think that isn't true, then explain the millions of coins found in these bottom rung grading companies' slabs.
Look at centsles' purchasing habits on eBay. That may give you a big clue. Although I cannot find that specific coin, I can only go back 30 days and I can only look at eBay.
Coin is genuine, with a couple of bag marks. Strong VF. NNC tend to be OK..they are hardly SGS-but no-where near anything 1st or 2nd tier..
Just out of curiousity... how can you tell for sure ? It seems the photos are very washed out and lack detail. This one is a high-stakes game. WAY too many red flags. Is it really true that centsles owns NNC and sells NNC slabs ? If so, that's the biggest red flag of all.
You will find many threads to that effect on this site. BTW; Not owning any SGS slabs, my opinion does not mean much, but I find it hard to believe that it could be worse than the NNC slabs I have seen.
I echo that. When I was a newbie, I had one - a $5 Indian - that turned out later cleaned and overgraded. I knew that NGC and PCGS were tops, but I figured "drop a point or two from NNC's grade and bid accordingly". BAD strategy. I am DONE with NNC. One and done.
Now that is not a bad deal if the coin in fact is genuine which I believe that it is! Even if the coin has been cleaned, a VF-35 specimen would reasonably bring $2,500 to $3,000 or more. I do not know if centsles owns NNC or not but due to the mistrust in their grading, one can pick up some good deals by being a selective and careful buyer! I used to purchase a lot of coins from a Coin Dealer that dealt in bulk/problem slabs. Many of these coins were in NNC slabs and the problem was that they were overgraded. I picked up a lot of early Lincolns 1909 through the 1930's that were graded by NNC as MS-66 to MS-67 RD but were in fact MS-64 RD's with an occasional MS-65 RD for $10 to $15 each. Also, I could usually could get better deal on the coins when I purchased them in bulk. I would inspect each and every coin for grade, Errors and Varieties and usually would find quite a few higher dollar RPM's, DDO's, DDR's and other Error coins in the slabs that were not attributed and not priced for the Error or Variety. Now, you can't go wrong if you buy early Lincolns that are MS-64 RD to MS-65 RD at EF to AU prices and get the Error and Varieties as bonuses. This Coin Dealer retired and no one ever stepped up to replace him, so the days of those kind of deals are long gone. The moral of the story here is, that you don't have to trust NNC for their grading but you can use the mistrust in their grading to your advantage. By being a very selective, careful and wise buyer, you can purchase NNC slabbed coins for a fraction of their' true value, break them out and have them certified and graded (and attributed if they are Errors or Varieties) by PCGS, NGC or ANACS (depending upon whether the coin has issues or no issues) and resell the reslabbed coins at a fairly nice premium. If you don't believe that this is the case, then do a study of all NNC slabbed coins sold on eBay, subtract two grades and compare these of the same Date, Mintmark and Series of coins sold on eBay that are certified and graded by PCGS, NGC and ANACS. Once complete, I think that you will be a believer! Frank
I agree that good coins can be found in 2nd-rate TPG holders - an idea which validates the age-old CT mantra of "buy the coin, not the holder". That, in turn, gets back to the CT idea of read up, study up, post up, listen up, so one can make an informed, smart choice, and buy the coin on it's own merits. In this case I couldn't BEGIN to verify this coin as genuine, based on foggy washed out photos. And to weigh it, one must break it out of the slab... What's more, territorial gold is specialist territory, and I don't have nearly enough knowledge in this area. I think it is a VERY risky buy.
