ANCIENT - Byzantine Fever - Plague of Justinian Coins c. 541 AD

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Ancientnoob, Apr 25, 2013.

  1. Eng

    Eng Senior Eng

    Very nice Anoob, love these big coins...:thumb:
     
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  3. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    I was going to write something up on the Justinian Plague and the alterations of the coins of Constantinople, but Nathan beat me to it. I have been on the lookout for a decent RY16 follis and found a cheap one on ebay today and it was on the verge of closing, so I Clio'ed at the last few seconds :D.

    Since Justinian was struck with the illness, the die cutters seem to have taken that into consideration around RY 15 to RY 17. One of the many symptoms of Bubonic Plague is the swelling of lymph nodes. Looking at the Constantinople follis and half follis of that time, you can see a drastic change in the portraits:


    RY 13 vs. RY RY 16 of the same Constantinople Follis (Sear 163)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    RY 12 vs. RY 16 of the same Constantinople Half Follis (Sear 165):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    You can read more about this (its in French, but Google does a fairly good job in the translation) here:

    Pottier, H., L'empereur Justinien survivant à la peste bubonique (542), Mélanges Cécile Morrisson, Paris, 2010, p. 685-691
     
  4. Milesofwho

    Milesofwho Omnivorous collector

    This is a year 15 Follis of Justinian from the second oficina of the Constantinople mint. I was really interested when I found out it was from that period, courtesy of this great book. 801F68DB-70D3-4A91-8AA5-FC97238C3744.jpeg
    The coin is also ex-Goldberg, but as the listed lot on the ticket was two coins it does not give weights or diameter for them. I also do not know the location of the second coin. The best I can come up in terms of dimensions is 35mm for diameter and around 10-15 grams for the weight. If I ever get a scale I’ll actually weigh it. It remains one of my favorite Byzantines in terms of size and condition. 58C11C8D-1B34-4467-B5D2-0682E5181869.jpeg 0798217B-9715-4E3B-9326-24C60CFD231B.jpeg P. S. Is this a good way to photograph coins? I’m not looking to picture the coin as if it were for sale so it seems alright in a casual way. I find that taking the photos this way provides a more “in hand” appearance, which is my main goal in taking the photograph.
     
  5. Caesar_Augustus

    Caesar_Augustus Well-Known Member


    When you compare the nice style of the RY 13 and then the crude style of the RY 16 folli, it seems to me that the engraver passed away from the plague. That, or Justinian got really sick.
     
  6. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    Its possible. The funny thing is that there are coins around the RY16 and RY17 from Constantinople that are also normal, albeit in fewer quantities. Need to keep an eye out for those too!
     
  7. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    Here's my year 15 (23.31 g). He looks a bit jowly, but nothing like that first year 16:

    Screen Shot 2017-12-17 at 9.53.25 PM.jpg

    According to Sear, that dates it to 541/2, so the main plague year. (One of the reasons I've always liked the coin.) But ancientnoob in the OP says year 14 was 541/2... I'm assuming Sear is right(?), but now I'm wondering...
     
  8. arnoldoe

    arnoldoe Well-Known Member

  9. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    I suspect its a typo as it should be RY 15 as Justinian ascended to the throne in August of 527. The paper also indicates the same:

    upload_2017-12-18_6-37-43.png
     
  10. Caesar_Augustus

    Caesar_Augustus Well-Known Member

    Maybe they were struck with old dies from the, then deceased, engraver. Or perhaps the engraver valiantly kept on working through his sickness until his last breath. Always fun to ponder the possibilities.
     
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  11. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    If you compare the coins from the other mints during this time frame, the portraits are still the same:

    Byzantine Empire: Justinian I (527-565 CE) Æ Half Follis, Nicomedia, RY 16 (Sear 203; DOC 143; MIBE 116b)

    Obv: Helmeted and cuirassed bust facing, holding globus cruciger and shield; cross to right
    Rev: Large K; staurogram above, date across field; NI in exergue

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Black Friar

    Black Friar Well-Known Member

    I love the plague spread by Byzantine coins. I purchased this one from a dealer in NYC the last time the ANA was there, I think it was 2000. I couldn't believe I was able to snatch it. The Constans was from last summers ANA in Denver where I was able pick fun stuff from two of my favorite ancient/Byzantine dealers.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Caesar_Augustus

    Caesar_Augustus Well-Known Member

    That Constantine VIII is nothing but beautiful, Black Friar! :)
     
  14. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    Its definitely one of the better ones I have seen! Congrats!
     
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  15. Black Friar

    Black Friar Well-Known Member

    Thanks, and I'm glad you enjoyed it. Makes me smile every time I see it. Hail Caesar:stop::happy:
     
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  16. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    Well, I won the follis version of the Nicomedia half follis that I posted earlier today. Even though I have this particular type of follis in a later year, I wanted one during the plague years to complement the other coins I have already posted.

    Byzantine Empire: Justinian I (527-565 CE) Æ Follis, Nicomedia, RY 15 (Sear 201; DOC 135b; MIBE 113a)

    Obv: Helmeted and cuirassed bust facing, holding globus cruciger and shield; cross to right
    Rev: Large M, above, cross; to left A/N/N/O; to right X/Ч;below A; NIKO in exergue

    [​IMG]

    and here is the other Sear-201 in my collection as a contrast:

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    Nice win! Beautiful coin on a humongous flan! Plus of course the neat history.
     
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  18. Caesar_Augustus

    Caesar_Augustus Well-Known Member

    Congratulations! I saw that one... then I saw the price. :) Really like the 2nd one too, from year 22 of his reign.
     
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  19. Herberto

    Herberto Well-Known Member

    Nice coins and nice written, but this little part is not quite correct.

    Plagues always came sporadically even in Antiquity and Renaissance, and that plague during Justinian’s time hardly was the reason for the supposed thousand years of decline.

    After the (Western) Roman Empire collapsed a lot was lost. True, Pagan Barbarians from Germania don’t read Plato’s philosophical works, Aristotle’s physics, Ptolemy’s astronomical works, Homer’s Illiad and Odyssey, Hippocrates’ and Galen’s medical works, and they cannot build outstanding/spectacular buildings. All these things were done by Romans(now “Byzantines”). A little exception was perhaps Italy, as it was (one of?) the richest part of the western part of Roman Empire, but with Justinian’s two-times Gothic-wars and with Lombards’ invasion Italy was finished for good.

    But Europe was not left “in the darkness” and “would not recover for nearly a thousand years”. Actually, numerous inventions and progress were made in terms of philosophy, science, agriculture, architecture, medicine. True, in the part of (Pagan) Europe initially it was somehow primitive to start with unlike the Byzantines and Muslims who had advanced culture/learning in Middle Ages. But that Barbarians’ culture that ruined/replaced classical culture, was “only” at the beginning: eventually when Charlemagne, a great European monarch around 800 CE, secured his empire he initiated the “Carolingian Renaissance”, and onwards the classical learning expanded eastward in Europe. At the same time under the Macedonian Dynasty in Byzantium the Macedonian Renaissance was initiated which resulted into the “civilizing” of the Russians/Slavs.

    So while the Pagan Europe was indeed "primitive" just after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, the things changed immediately in 800’s (Charlemagne’s reign) and progress were made, and in 1000’s I would say that continental Europe was more advanced than it was during Plato’s time.

    The notion of a supposed dark ages that lasted for a supposed 1000 years is one of the widespread myth that has been refuted and diminished the last few decades in the academia.

    If interested, you might find these links beneath informative:

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/quora/how-the-middle-ages-reall_b_5767240.html

    http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=dynamic_middle_ages

    And this doesn’t particularly deal with Middle Ages, but perhaps you might find it interesting since it explains where the myth originates from:

    https://www.faraday.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/CIS/Numbers/Numbers_Lecture.pdf
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
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  20. Herberto

    Herberto Well-Known Member

    And now about coins.

    Nothing news here,

    Justinian, 40 nummi, Constantinople, year 21.
    very cleaned and oiled. (During this time, around 548, Theodora died and Byzantines took Rome for second time from the Goth):
    527-565 Justinian 45 S163.png



    Justinian, 40 nummi, Constantinople, year 18.
    and not cleaned and very dark:
    527-565 Justinian 10 S163.jpg



    Justinian, 20 nummi, Carthage, year 13.
    This coin is minted when the plague outbreak (540). This coin is just as wide as the two folles above. Because initially the coins were wide, as years passed on the coins became smaller and smaller:
    527-565 Justinian 22 S266.jpg


    And two funny images from the game “Civilization V” depicting Justinian and Theodora:
    JFD_Justinian_Diplo.png
    Theodora_(Civ5).jpg
     
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  21. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    The plague under Justinian was remarkable (see the good book
    "Justinian's Flea: The First Great Plague and the End of the Roman Empire" by William Rossen). But so were the earthquakes at Antioch and the invasions of the Sasanians:

    http://augustuscoins.com/ed/interesting/Justinian.html

    Their effect is visible on the coins. Most obviously, "Antioch" was renamed "Theopolis".
    SB214JustinianObv2.jpg SB214JustinianRev2.jpeg
    Sear 214
    34-32 mm. 18.04 grams. 6:00
    +THEUP
    This type with Justinian enthroned facing occurs only
    at Antioch/Theopolis
    Struck 531/2-536/7 [Hahn]
     
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