Featured [ancients] a coin from the Purple People

Yes, it does depend on how they are pronounced. If you actually pronounce the "t"s in those words the word will not sound quite right. They are transcribed mɪʔn/ and /bʌʔn/. Notice the 'n' is its own syllable in each word. (The item that looks like a question mark stands for a glottal stop.

Aren't languages a barrel of fun?

 

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It's meant to be a fountain which I think would make sense considering it's a Hippocampus and dolphins but I've never actually seen water in it... dang budget cuts

 

I don't remember having seen this thread at the time it's been posted : what a pleasure to read it !

Thanks @TIF

Q

 

congrats @TIF for making another featured article

 

Thanks, @Curtisimo, for reviving this old thread . It was a fun coin to write about. Lately I haven't had much free time for composing fun writeups but I hope that changes soon.

Thanks for the coin kudos, everyone

 

Ya TIF, I hope your schedule opens up you make some wonderfully funny and interesting posts of beautiful coins.

 

Yes I enjoyed reading the thread as well TIF, great job and brilliant coin.

 

I just came across this thread this evening, and was intrigued to watch you noodle it through, TIF. I was glad to see you staying with it on the vocalization track, and impressed. You did very well for one not trained in this. Congrats. Let me fill in a blank spot or two. You mused about rules for vowels. They had them. Phoenician is in the family of languages called "West Semitic." The length and quality of vowels in West Semitic is related to the position of the associated consonant in a word, and the location of stress.

Your second word: as a verb "to rule" takes a-vowels (malak), but as a noun "king" it follows a different vocalic pattern (more typical of East Semitic) and reads as malku. In further West Semitic linguistic development (Hebrew) this becomes the base form for words called "segholates" (with e-vowels) and as a segholate noun reads as melek = king. The form you have given did not exist.

The name of the city on the maritime coast is similar but not so simple. Cutting to the chase: if we vocalize on the basis of Hebrew parallels, the vowels are (reduced + a) as g(e)-bal', accent on second syllable. The reduced vowel is not a short "e" but a shewa like the e in "the cat" If we vocalize on the basis of the Akkadian parallel (East Semitic) we read "Gubli" (that is the more likely based on the normal behavior of Ugaritic which is essentially Phoenician). Chances are very good that back then people pronounced the city name differently depending upon where they were from.

So 'Uzba'al malku Gubli (if you were Eastern) or 'Uzba'al melek G(e)bal (late western accent - i.e. Hebrew)

The ancients had as much variation in language as we do.

 

Excellent post @lrbguy , I really enjoyed it. I just wanted to comment on one item you mentioned.

We still do this today as well. For example, people who live in the city of Toronto Canada do not pronounce the second "t" sound while many outside of Toronto do pronounce it. So, in Toronto, the name is pronounced təˈrɑnoʊ while outside it is pronounced təˈrɑntoʊ.

 

Thanks so much for that detailed explanation, lrbguy!

 

This is exactly why I just ignore people who talk about 'how the ancients did it'. When we are talking about many centuries and many places we just can't expect people to follow rules set down by 19th century classicists. We get hints when we read reports of people who could not pronounce 'properly' (most well known is the Biblical shibboleth) but the last person who 'got the joke' on much of this died two millennia ago and we are left to admit that language was never as precise or consistent as some would prefer.

 

I feel I need to post this Phoenician coin again. It has "Yamm" the Phoenician god of the sea on the obverse. Struck nearly in 400 B.C., I wonder if it was issued by the Phoenicians themselves or by the Persian rulers at that time. Local Mint is Arados.

 

I had a little time to look at this today, but I won't be able to help you much. I think this is your coin:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/ca...&fld=http://www.forumancientcoins.com/Coins2/
If the link does not work for you please let us know so we can give more comment on the design.

The letters at the top (mem-aleph-nun) are a titular abbreviation, and so will not parse out to a single word.

As for the obverse figure, what is the basis for identifying it as a representation of Yamm? There is nothing about the image itself that would draw me to that conclusion. The use of waves in the design of the reverse may or may not have anything to do with the obverse.

BTW now that this is a "featured" thread, further discussion of this second coin should be in a thread of its own.

 

Thanks for your friendly and educational concern. Wildwinds list this coin on the page of Arados -City and semi-Autonomous coinage. It's considered as a Stater listed as BMC 36a. They identify the deity on obverse as a sea-god. Of course that's not Poseidon here. The Phoenicians were known as " Men of the Sea ". They probably conceived this god.
The third letter N to upper left of reverse could well be the initial of a Phoenician king. I think we need here to look for the kings of Arados at that time and see if any of their names start with N ( Noon ).
Ancient Forum Coins consider the letters as Aramaic ( language spoken by Jesus Christ). Is it derived from Hebrew or Phonician? The're both Semitic anyway.
Yamm in Hebrew means the Sea. But in Phoenician it could also mean the same thing, as well as in other Semitic languages such as Arabic.
Hope I'm coping well with this issue.

 

I have recently acquired an example. I think the Phoenician inscription refers to Byblos as Gebal. Gebal being the Phoenician pronunciation (ironic) of their city; Byblos being the Greek. Ironic because referring to a Phoenician word as the Greek translation using the Greek translation of what the Phoenicians called themselves, which were the Ken'ani; which is the name the Hebrews used to derive Canaanite from. Follow me? I don't.

I've been looking for a decent, affordable example for about a year now. These coins are all over the map, price wise. There are better examples that go for $1500-2000, with worst examples selling for $2500. I don't know the rarity on dye combos; but that probably plays into it.

I was writing something up about Uzbaal only being known based off of the inscriptions on these coins, the lion and the bull, and the murex shell being used to make purple dye; when things started looking familiar. I then googled "cointalk byblos" and found @TIF 's thread. She did a better job than I ever could; so here we are.


PHOENICIA, Byblos (Gebal). Ozbaal. Circa 394-352 BC. AR Shekel. Three hoplites, holding shields, on galley left above waves, prow ending in lion's head; below, hippocamp left above murex shell, `Z (in Phoenician) above dorsal fin / Lion attacking bull left; ‘ZB’L MLK GBL (“Ozbaal, king of Gebal” in Phoenician) above.
13.3g
25.2mm

-Michael

 

Wow, very nice, indeed!

 

Very nice example!

 

this only true spqr ,
‘ZB’L MLK GBL =Ozbaal, king of Gebal , he has two "ayn" Arabic عزبعل and that were duing Persian king xerxes 486 BC,

 

One of the all time best threads!

Super funny but also educational and 100% gluten free .

 

Sorry, I don't think I understand the comment.