How exactly DO you grade a coin?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by LuxUnit, Dec 1, 2017.

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  1. LuxUnit

    LuxUnit Well-Known Member

    Everywhere I look grading is described as assessing the physical condition of a coin.

    How is anyone capable of deciding what amount of damage changes a coin from a MS67 to a MS66 or a 63 to 64.

    I can understand wear at high points but how do you measure field chatter or marks.

    How do you measure "scratches" and when do they go from grade lowering to making a coin details/damaged?

    How do you measure luster besides seeing if it's there or not?
     
    LuxUnit, Dec 1, 2017
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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    In simplest terms, it all boils down to experience. If you have that experience you can do it 5 seconds. If you don't - not a chance.

    If you want the complicated and detailed explanation you can read about 1000 or so of the posts I've made on the subject.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 1, 2017
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  4. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    LuxUnit, posted: "Everywhere I look grading is described as assessing the physical condition of a coin. How is anyone capable of deciding what amount of damage changes a coin from a MS67 to a MS66 or a 63 to 64. I can understand wear at high points but how do you measure field chatter or marks. How do you measure "scratches" and when do they go from grade lowering to making a coin details/damaged? How do you measure luster besides seeing if it's there or not?

    What you have asked takes desire, time and study :bookworm: in great big chunks = experience. I :troll: may take a stab at some of your questions but only o_O if you answer these questions: ;)

    1. "Everywhere I look..." What does everywhere mean?
    2. What books do you own/have read about grading coins?
    3. Are you a member of the ANA?
    4. How long have you been collecting?
    5. Are you in a coin club?
     
    Insider, Dec 1, 2017
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  5. Kasia

    Kasia Got my learning hat on

    Just like riding a bike... You just get on and pedal. At some time, for the series or types of coins you know, your eye will tell you what grade it is. But you have to have some time practicing behind it.
     
    Kasia, Dec 1, 2017
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  6. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    A great tool is to look at lots of certified coins, both straight graded and details coins. See what passes, and what doesn't. A scratch on an MS coin is less acceptable than on a VG coin.
     
    longshot, Dec 1, 2017
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  7. LuxUnit

    LuxUnit Well-Known Member

    @Insider

    1. On acg website and pcgs. Forums but I haven't trudged through everything to find the individual posts I need. (So not EVERYWHERE ha)
    2. None really. I have a VAM attribution book but I don't have the time or funds to buy books (working on my Doctorate in chiropractic :s )
    3. No, I am not.
    4. Maybe 5 years, but I never looked at grading till this year.
    5. Yes, but i can rarely ever go to events because of school. And I don't know anyone personally there so it's a poor resource for me.
     
    LuxUnit, Dec 1, 2017
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  8. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    The PCGS photograde site is a good starting point, and longshot gave a great suggestion as well of looking at as many graded coins as you can. Auction sites are another good resource where you can look at a lot of graded coins, pictures aren't ideal but at least it will be free and is better than nothing. PCGS also has a youtube channel that has some grading videos that are a pretty good run down of the basics.

    If a coin show ever comes near by going there and browsing the graded ones can be very helpful to see some in hand. Grading and grading from pictures are in someways a different skill set as you need to learn to grade the picture as well to figure out what it's trying to show which is where seeing the coin in person can be a big help. If you ever order any coins coins from online comparing it when you get it to the picture you bought it from can be helpful with that.
     
    baseball21, Dec 1, 2017
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  9. kkathyl0

    kkathyl0 Active Member

    Look at it under good lighting first without loop, look and the centering and the reverse. Look at the luster & strike with loop while rotating the coin. Compare it to your reference (book or web app). Note the amount of scratched bangs then finally look at the overall appeal of the coin. Then I check again the high points to see if I missed any rub or other issues not seen first go around.

    I am usually a grade under then what most see, but better to be safe then sorry.
     
    kkathyl0, Dec 1, 2017
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  10. TheFinn

    TheFinn Well-Known Member

    Grading is more art than science. Things like strike, luster, toning and many other things all come into play. This is more true for uncirculated coins. Circulated coins is based more on the amount of wear and detail left on the coin. Photograde works well for this unless it is a weakly struck coin. The characteristics for a 1924-S Buffalo nickel are different than those for a 1938-D Buffalo Nickel. Time and seeing lots of coins and asking lots of questions.
     
    TheFinn, Dec 1, 2017
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  11. Kasia

    Kasia Got my learning hat on

    Yes, because graders not only need to know and apply the criteria for each grade, they also have to incorporate an innate rememberance of where each grade starts and stops, based on handling many, many coins in each grade. Because grading is for each coin but also needs to fit in with coins which have been graded already and those yet to be graded.
     
    Kasia, Dec 1, 2017
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  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I was pressed for time yesterday LuxUnit but I'll try and write a bit more detailed answer now. As already mentioned learning how to grade coins requires a good bit of study. You said above that you were going to school to get your doctorate. Well, you know how much study that has required - learning how to grade coins accurately and correctly is just like that, or any other trade really. They all require a lot of work, time, effort, and study !

    But here's the thing, once you've completed your schooling and graduated, got your doctorate hanging on the wall. It's taken you years to accomplish that hasn't it ? But ya know what, even though you've done all of that and are finally at that point - you're still just a rookie. Now the real learning comes into play - now comes the part where you begin to gain experience. And it is only after gaining that experience that you actually become good at your trade.

    Right now, you may have a hard time understanding how one can ever compare learning how to grade coins to something like becoming a doctor. But I assure you they are no different, but then neither is any other trade. To become an electrician or a plumber - it takes 4 years of schooling, and then another 2-4 years of schooling to become a master electrician or plumber. And then all the experience that goes with it.

    The problem is when it comes to learning how to grade coins there aren't any schools to go to, no colleges or universities have classes in that. Sure you can take classes and attend seminars at the ANA, but they generally only last from a couple of days to a couple of weeks. And you can even take correspondence classes, but they're pretty much the same. Point is all they give ya is the basics. So when ya wanna learn how to grade coins - you pretty much gotta do it on your own. Good news is - you can.

    So when you started your schooling, how did that begin ? It started with you buying books didn't it ? All schooling does, you have to be able to read and understand the books just to get started. And there's a lot of books, but that's because there's a lot to learn. Now you can try and shortcut things, not buy the books - but if ya do where does that leave ya ? I think you already know the answer.

    Bottom line, sooner or later you gotta buy the books if you want to actually learn - that's the starting point. And after you read and study the books that's when you have to start studying the coins themselves. And as you're studying the coins you have to get the books out, read the book, look at the coin, and look at the book again. And you have to do that so you can compare what the book says to what your eyes see. And I don't mean just one here and there or a hundred, or a thousand, I mean tens of thousands of them. And that's just to learn how to grade 1 specific type of coin - just one ! And then you have to do the same thing with all the other coins.

    Beginning to get the idea ? Ya see, learning how to grade coins is probably harder than learning how to become a doctor. But - you can do it.

    So back to the books. The questions you asked, the answers are in the books. I could try and explain it to you here but it would take a book to do so. And I mentioned I've written thousands of posts on the subject of grading coins, but all of them combined still don't equal the books. You also mentioned that funds are tight, understandable when you're going to school. But here's a book that won't cost ya anything, and I strongly suggest you study it, intensely. Better yet, find a way to buy it to make that easier to do. http://www.coingrading.com/

    Now that's just one book, but it was written by one of the best coin graders there has ever been. But one book isn't gonna do it, it takes more. Just to get started it takes more. So here's 2 more books you need to buy, read, and study, intensely.

    http://www.wizardcoinsupply.com/pro...MIwLTvqcTr1wIVV7nACh1WdQxKEAQYASABEgLwUPD_BwE


    https://www.amazon.com/Official-Guide-Grading-Counterfeit-Detection/dp/0375720502

    Now as you'll see they are not terribly expensive, one way or another you can afford to buy them. And if you buy used copies they are cheaper still. But if you want to learn to grade coins - buy them you must. Just remember, that's only the beginning.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 2, 2017
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  13. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    I can grade like PCGS on circulated U.S. type coins from AG to MS62, and I can grade MS Morgans and Indian Cents up to MS65. Beyond MS65 I don't have the skill to do it consistently, because I don't have enough practice or experience.
    The reason I learned to grade like PCGS (and NGC) is because I sell my coins, and when I put a submission together, I need to know what the coins will grade so I don't waste my money.
    CAC is a different beast all-together. I know what he'll sticker in circulated grades XF and below, but I'm terrible beyond that. So I don't send much to CAC.
     
    C-B-D, Dec 2, 2017
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  14. David Setree Rare Coins

    David Setree Rare Coins Well-Known Member

    How is anyone capable of deciding what amount of damage changes a coin from a MS67 to a MS66 or a 63 to 64.

    I can understand wear at high points but how do you measure field chatter or marks.

    How do you measure "scratches" and when do they go from grade lowering to making a coin details/damaged?

    How do you measure luster besides seeing if it's there or not?[/QUOTE]


    ......and that's not all there is.

    There is eye appeal, strike, luster.....it is an art and not a science.

    Look at 100,000 coins and then that's just a start.
     
    David Setree Rare Coins, Dec 2, 2017
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  15. Colonialjohn

    Colonialjohn Active Member

    All the right answers appear above - but in the beginning its best to buy slabs. Continue to buy slabs UNLESS you start to specialize in a series (i.e., Morgan Dollars). Then just buy the variety/grading book for the series. Some dates/mints are strong strikes and some are notorious for weak strikes. Such as in Morgans = how many bag marks are there in the face? Important as you go from MS60 to 66 for just one consideration. Its an art more than a science and we can argue between 63/64. Sure. I buy slabs only now on some issues like West Indies countermark issues or from large auction houses with a good reputation or money back guarantees. Since this series is loaded with counterfeits. Speaking of counterfeits no one yet has written a good book on Material Analysis and counterfeits. This will all change in 1-2 months. My new book :"Forgotten Coins" via Amazon Books looks at over 1000 different coins from 1500 to present via XRF surface analysis. Knowing the alloys and having pictures of major counterfeiting types and how the Chinese do it can help. Soon its in the final editing stages at Amazon Books.

    John Lorenzo
    Numismatist
    United States
     
    Colonialjohn, Dec 2, 2017
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  16. chascat

    chascat Well-Known Member

    Good Question...I usually start with eye appeal, then I decide which grades it's NOT from low to high, then having it narrowed down to just a few choices, I go through all the textbook examples and come fairly close to an accurate choice using most of the aformentioned steps. Submitting will be based on mostly a value basis.
     
    chascat, Dec 2, 2017
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  17. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    David Setree Rare Coins, asks: "How is anyone capable of deciding what amount of damage changes a coin from a MS67 to a MS66 or a 63 to 64. I can understand wear at high points but how do you measure field chatter or marks.

    This is fairly easy, Professionals such as yourself do it on a daily basis at the TPGS's. There is a page in the ANA Grading guide Morgan dollar section with a useful chart you can begin with.

    How do you measure "scratches" and when do they go from grade lowering to making a coin details/damaged?

    This has not been published yet. Right now, if it bothers the grader based on the location, severity, length, factoring in the age and grade of the coin - a decision is made. This can be more subjective than determining a wear grade.

    How do you measure luster besides seeing if it's there or not? ...and that's not all there is. There is eye appeal, strike, luster.....it is an art and not a science. Look at 100,000 coins and then that's just a start.

    Much of this is on the chart I mentioned. The problem comes with training your brain to associate the words (outstanding, most, etc.) with what you have seen is acceptable by professional graders. Experience with actual coins and a good teacher is the fastest way to "get rolling."

    @Colonialjohn
    What about the Cap and Ray book?
     
    Insider, Dec 2, 2017
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  18. David Setree Rare Coins

    David Setree Rare Coins Well-Known Member

    Thanks, but I wasn't asking the question.

    Just adding on how intricate it really can be.....
     
    David Setree Rare Coins, Dec 2, 2017
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  19. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    David Setree Rare Coins, posted: "Thanks, but I wasn't asking the question.
    Just adding on how intricate it really can be....."

    Don't be offended but if you had the time, I'll bet it would have been very useful to all of us if only you would have posted some of your insight dealing with the "intricate" aspects of grading. For example, many here don't even understand what "luster" from a surface is. How do you treat coins with scratches? :happy:
     
    Insider, Dec 2, 2017
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  20. fish4uinmd

    fish4uinmd Well-Known Member

    fish4uinmd, Dec 2, 2017
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  21. LuxUnit

    LuxUnit Well-Known Member

    @GDJMSP wow thank you. I favorited the book link!

    Also thank you everyone else, they're are a lot of great answers! Looks like I'll just be adding a little bit more to my studying ha
     
    LuxUnit, Dec 2, 2017
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