1909 Lincolns

Now ain't that the Truth! BTW, throw an aging mind in to the mix and the situation becomes even more complicated.

Semper Fidelis

 

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All 1909 Lincoln Cents originate from a common Master Die.

What CAD program did you use?

Following is a CAD rendering (drawing) of the 1909 Obverse followed by images of that rendering overlaid on both your coins. Sorry the images do degrade some when converting them from a CAD image to jpg. As you can see the CAD drawing overlays correctly on both coins.

 

The same holds true for the reverse.

Following is a CAD rendering (drawing) of a 1909-S VDB reverse overlaid on the OP's 1909-P No VDB.

 

For the comparison measurements I used Serif DrawPlus X8; for more precise 3D models I use SketchUp Pro 2017 . . . However, the DrawPlus program does have an interesting auto-trace utility, but you need to have a HD photo with good contrast and even lighting so as to not capture unwanted features in the trace. What I really find useful though for making overlays with "markers" is my new Corel PaintShop Pro 2018 (64-bit) program. I can bring in the photos in question; change their color to B&W (to reduce light glare hot spots); jack up the contrast; throw on a transparency layer; zoom to the point of pixilation, and; begin adding some fairly precise markers in just minutes. I don't even have to add a layer to the 2nd photo as I use the native file format of the program, and it auto-saves the original. All I have to do is to remember where it is I'm putting the markers at on the second coin. It does produce a large file and is processor (both CPU and GPU) intensive, but I have a pretty power-packed unit. Besides, it will convert the file to a reasonable sized JPG with little loss of definition.

As a clarification (though you may be absolutely right for the 1909 Lincoln as a different process may have been used), the "Sole" parent for the coins I'm familiar with is the "Master Hub". This Master Hub is used to produce two or more "Master Dies"; as such, during that hubbing process, error(s) could be introduced onto one Master Die and not the other(s) resulting in two distinctly different looking end coins (regardless of other errors that may be introduced during the hubbing with those die [or "dice"] of the Working Hubs, and then those being used to hub the Working die [ditto]); assuming of course that all of the "Master Die" are used.

Last but not least by any means, that is some terrific work above!!!

Semper Fidelis

 

Basic conventional thought is (at the time the Lincoln Cent began production)
A Master Hub was produced from the reduction process of the galvano. This Master Hub was used over many years of coinage production to produce the Master Die for each coinage year. Additional design elements were added to this Master Die (such as the remaining digits of the date). This Master Die was then used to produce Working Hubs which in turn were then used to produce the Working Dies. Additional design elements were added to the Working Dies (such as the mint mark) then used to strike coinage. Although there are exceptions (1960 Lincoln Cent) there was only one Master Die produced each year. And these Master Dies all have a common Master Hub in their lineage.

Following is a CAD drawing of the Lincoln Cent Obverse for 1909 through 1919. Next is each drawing overlaid to produce a single drawing for 1909 through 1919. Next is the date extracted from the overlay drawing.

 

Nice job! Your research, backed up by your drawings, was obviously much more extensive than mine . . . mine was based on the theoretical flowchart of at what points in the process (from Master Hubs to Working Dies) that various types of varieties can occur . . . should have expected as much from a farmer; of course doesn't explain why I missed it given that I was brought up on a small family farm (200 Acres) in SW Michigan.

At any rate, that leaves just the question (to me) of, are there any years where MD doubling has occurred where there has been coinage found that did not show Master Die Doubling? Obviously if there were, this would indicate that more than one Master Die was hubbed AND used in that particular year.

Again, terrific job and nicely backed up with concrete evidence!!!

Semper Fidelis

 

The 1960 Lincoln Cent is an example where two Master Dies were utilized - there is a Large Date and Small Date . Even some Lincoln Cent doubled working dies were produced that year by successive squeezing from working hubs originating from the two different Master Dies.

 

You guys are nuts - in a good way!