First Relase is a rip-off

While in the home page of Coin Talk I noticed an advertisement for Buffalo $50 Gold Coins. I clicked on it to see what they had. The company's name was "Modern Coin Mart". They listed, along with many other coins, these two items:

2007 W Gold Buffalo NGC Proof 70 Ultra Cameo .......$989.00
2007 W Gold Buffalo NGC Proof 70 Ultra Cameo - Early Release....$1,225.00

Now I understand what Early Release or First Release means, but for god's sake they're both NGC Proof 70 Ultra Cameo. They are exactly the same grade so who cares if it was a perfect first coin or a perfect last coin----They're both perfect ...NO DIFFERENCE.

 

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why oh why didi you take the red pill?

 

Maybe the "Early Release" is a 71 on the Sheldon scale but NGC won't slab it as such. SGS would though.

On the other hand there are people out there that WILL pay extra money for those two extra words on the slab. I, like yourself. am not one of those people. They will most likely find a buyer for it.

 

Idom't even buy "slabbed coins" if they are priced at more than raw for the same grade...

Clinker

 

There was an article in Coin World not too awful long ago about the "first strike" or "first release" designation. One of the Coin World writers interviewed Mint Director Moy and asked him about TPGs labeling some coins this way. Mr. Moy stated that there is absolutely no way the Mint can determine which coins were struck first and they do not leave the Mint labeled as such. The Mint does not support the TPGs labeling slabbed coins this way, neither should anyone else. Its another gimmick fabricated by the TPGs to make them and the dealers that sell them, more money. IMO

 

So you mean they might (GASP!) be lying!

I just might inquire about that coin with the stipulation that they can document via the U.S. mint that said coin is an "early rellease".

In addition what are the paramaters to quaulify as an early release? First ten, 100, 1000?

Like I stated earlier, some people will pay more for those words and the coin will sell.

 

I just emailed NGC about this

Hey,

Why not go to the original source? Here's my question to NGC.

"Hi,
I have always regarded NGC as one of the top TPGs.
However, a recent post on CoinTalk.org really makes me wonder about NGC and the few other "better" TPGs.
A dealer was offering this:

2007 W Gold Buffalo NGC Proof 70 Ultra Cameo .......$989.00
2007 W Gold Buffalo NGC Proof 70 Ultra Cameo - Early Release....$1,225.00

So the dealer charges a premium for an "Early Release".

How does NGC determine it's an early release when the U.S. Mint can't even tell you that?

Please enlighten me on this matter.

Thank you.

Wonder what the response will be?

 

Lol, you just figured that out? Those are for the people I guess that buy the slab and not the coin. I personally would prefer to spend that extra three hundred dollars on a coin that I need for my collection, not for some silly words on a slab that really don't mean anything IMO.

Phoenix

 

If my memoery is correct, I heard one of the guys selling those overpriced coins on tv saying that the new "early release" designation is put on coins made in the first week of production. Or maybe the first month.
Its a rip off either way.

 

Not sure who you're talking to Phoenix but I think we all figured it out.

Yup, Buy the slab NOT the coin in this case.

T'd me off so much that I started another thread.

CoinSaver deserves the credit though as a lot of people are sucked in by this crap.

 

I was talking to CoinSaver. Not being smart, or rude, so please don't take it as that anybody, was just saying it is a little obvious. Sorry for the confusion Clembo.

Phoenix

 

lets really break it down.............its just 1 oz of silver...14 bucks......or 1 oz of gold 780.00 bucks or whatever
i would not point fingers at NGC or Modern coin mart, if there were no market for these items they would not sell them, as to the early releases designation, the coins must be received by NGC for grading within 30 days of there release to the public to get this label, its all about selling the sizzle not the steak.........its not every ones thing but some folks want it.....if its not my or your idea of what is cool that doesn't make it wrong IMO

 

No offense taken Phoenix.
Like I said it's a case of buy the slab NOT the coin.

It's been discussed many, many times but not by me. LOL.
You know me by now. I DO go off on certain subjects.

Soooo... considering that the TPGs like NGC don't sell coins then they must be submitted. If a customer gets said coins to them early enough they might be "early release"? So far it makes what little sense that it can to me.

NOW, when the coins come back to the person that had same slabbed is there a paper trail that verifies it's "ealry release". A dog's pedigree is better documented.

 

Coin World- August 27, 2007 issue

Judge grants motion in "First Strikes" suit
NGC case deal may benefit ANA
by Cindy Brake
Coin World staff

A lawsuit against a second grading service concerning the use of the "First Strikes" designation has moved one step closer to a settlement and could financially benefit the American Numismatic Association.
United States District Judge Jose M. Martinez signed an order granting a joint motion for preliminary approval of class action settlement on July 19 in a lawsuit filed by Thomas Francisco against Numismatic Guarantee Corporation of America of Sarasota, Florida.
Francisco filed two complaints during November in the United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida in Miami, against NGC and against Collectors Universe Inc. doing business as Professional Coin Grading Service.
The lawsuits alleged that in 2005 and 2006 both grading services "deceptively labeled U.S. bullion coins (American Eagle silver and gold bullion coins and American Buffalo gold $50 dollar coins) as being "First Strikes" so as to be worth more money", with the knowledge that "its customers were marketing the coins labeled "First Strikes" as being more valuable or special when in fact there was no way to know which coins were "First Strikes." The lawsuit filed by Francisco against NGC notes that the designation "First Strike" has a meaning in the world of coins that a particular coin is one of the first coins struck by the Mint from a certain die set. NGC designated coins shipped by the Mint during the first month after release as "First Strikes".

> Monetary Recovery - NGC will contribute $650,000 to a settlement fund that will be distributed to the ANA or another such charity as the court may approve. The funds are earmarked for the education of the coin collecting public. Parties agreed that members of the class are difficult to determine; individual distributions would be cost prohibitive; and the distribution process could lead to fraudulent claims.

> Injunction Relief - NGC and its affiliated companies shall not designate any coin as a "First Strike" coin unless the coin is certified to be one of the first coins struck as part of a ceremonial striking by the U.S. Mint on the first day of minting.

The article goes on but what I've posted covers the point. This is not the article I mentioned earlier about the interview with Mint Director Moy, I couldnt find that issue right at the moment.

 

Works for me.

Thanks,

clembo

 

:desk:I guess everyone missed my point. Everyone gets involved in the discussion what is or isn't a first strike or early realease coin. The reasoning of course is that a coin "Struck Early" or one of the first struck on a new die will be a nicer or better struck coin. That would mean that the early ones would be the proof 70 ultra cameo's and the quality would go down from there. However if NGC grades the coin without the "early release" they are saying they don't know when it was minted (could have been the 100,000 coin) and they still grade it the same proof 70 ultra cameo so they have shot themselves in the foot. They imply the 100,000 coin is as perfect as the first coin per their own admission. Therefore the reasoning of the first strikes being better is null & void. So where's the extra value?

Besides the mint says they don't use just one die they have several and they are replaced at different times during the year. Thus this proof 70 ultra cameo could have been from the first batch of the 22nd die months after the original release date.

Anyone paying an additional $236.00 is getting ripped-off and I don't know why the dealers keep promoting this stuff.

On second thought , yes I can, like they say there is one born every minute.

 

The term "Early releases" is the same fraudulent and deceptive crap that the term "First Strikes" was. This change in terminology shouldn't fool anyone.

By the way, even after the lawsuit against NGC, First Spouse coins were still being slabbed by PCGS as "First Strikes". PCGS has even copyrighted the name "PCGS First Strike" (see http://www.pcgs.com/firststrike/). I'm not sure what is more reprehensible; copyrighting a general use term or applying it in a misleading and fraudulent way. Perhaps I should copyright the term "Dreamer 24 carat gold" and apply it to presidential dollars!

As far as I'm concerned, people who submit their coins in mint-sealed boxes to get the "First Strikes" designation are contributing to the problem as much as the TPG's are. If we want this to stop, collectors will have to stop paying a premium for fraudulent designations.

 

First, I agree with what's been said about "FirstStrike/Early Release" coins. The question I have is this.....can anyone tell the difference between a PR-70 UC and a PR-69 UC? SOOOOOOOOOO......why spend the premium for a "70" coin?

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