22D no D

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Pickin and Grinin, Nov 5, 2017.

?

Is this a 22D no D

Poll closed Nov 19, 2017.
  1. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    7.1%
  2. No

    13 vote(s)
    92.9%
  1. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    :rolleyes:I see what you are seeing, I will check the coin and see if it is a crack or contact mark.
     
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  3. Beefer518

    Beefer518 Well-Known Member

    Back in May, I scored a 22 No D for ridiculously cheap money. It was ungraded, but correctly ID'd as a No D. I learned that the key to the No-D is the strong reverse of Die set 2.

    Aside from the fact that the D jumped out at me in the OP's first post, the mushiness of the wheat stalk stems was key in telling me it is not a No-D. Look at the stems of the OP's coin's wheat stalks compared to this:
    1922 No D (Custom).jpg
     
  4. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    @Rick Stachowski What you are seeing is a contact mark, there isn't any trace of a die crack. I am still set on Die pair three.
     
    Rick Stachowski likes this.
  5. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    There are four die pairs. It isn't expected for the reverse to look like die pair 2.
     
  6. Beefer518

    Beefer518 Well-Known Member

    Die pair 2 is the No-D, Strong Reverse variety. It's the only die pairing that is considered the true No-D, and 1, 3, and 4 are considered Weak-D at best, and believed to be caused by grease filled dies. Die set 2 is from over-polishing because of a clash.

    From lincolncentresource.com (click for the 1922 No-D page):

    All 1922 weak D or No D coins fall into one of 7 categories:
    1. Die Pair #1 Weak D (Weak Reverse)
    2. Die Pair #1 No D (Weak Reverse)
    3. Die Pair #2 No D (Strong Reverse) also called 1922 Plain
    4. Die Pair #3 Weak D (Weak Reverse)
    5. Die Pair #3 No D (Weak Reverse)
    6. Die Pair #4 Weak D (Weak Reverse)
    7. Die Pair #4 No D (Weak Reverse)
     
    fish4uinmd likes this.
  7. Beefer518

    Beefer518 Well-Known Member

    I agree it's die set 3. The E PLURIBUS UNUM is about as an exact match as you can get. I still think I see traces of the D though, so I would say Weak D/Weak Rev.
     
  8. Rick Stachowski

    Rick Stachowski Motor City Car Capital

    Keep in mind the reverse Dies for 1, 3 and 4 are struck with very late die states, or worn Dies . Die 3 should show the lower left part of O in ONE begins to spread into the field as the die deteriotates.
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Rick Stachowski

    Rick Stachowski Motor City Car Capital

    It must be the perfect contact mark, because it matches the location for the die crack perfect ...
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Pickin and Grinin likes this.
  10. fish4uinmd

    fish4uinmd Well-Known Member

    1922 No D XF40 obv my coin 3.jpg 1922 No D XF40 rev my coin 2.jpg
     
    Pickin and Grinin likes this.
  11. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    Yes there is a slight trace of the MM visible. I am also in the same boat, weak D.
     
  12. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    I do see what you are seeing, but only in the photos.

    This is a Die Pair 3, I found that shows mine to a T. It's a PCGS MS63, the obverse and reverse match mine, except for wear of course. Notice the mushy WE the Liberty. the die striations on the Back of the coat.
    The reverse is also a die match, even a Woody.
    They do call this a No D weak D.
    I set the reverse in correlation to the obv. It also has the 30 degree rotation.
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/lincoln-ce...and-brown-pcgs-cac/a/1254-3564.s?type=NGC1254
     
    Rick Stachowski likes this.
  13. Rick Stachowski

    Rick Stachowski Motor City Car Capital

    This is where I 'm having a hard time matching yours up to #3 .

    If you look at the image from Lincoln Cent Resource .. it's a earlier die state then yours, of course I'm using the wheat for comparison .
    You can see the deterioration around the " O " of One, is really expanding .
    upload_2017-11-7_9-48-50.jpeg


    Since your is a later die state, we should being seeing the " O" starting to deform
    upload_2017-11-7_9-52-20.jpeg

    I would think by the die state your is in, it should look like this .
    upload_2017-11-7_9-55-55.jpeg
     
  14. Rick Stachowski

    Rick Stachowski Motor City Car Capital

    Now lets take a look at the date placement of the 2s .
    Here's number #3 . See how the last 2 in higher then the first 2 .
    upload_2017-11-7_10-6-1.jpeg


    Now look at yours, it's sits level like #1 .
    upload_2017-11-7_10-9-3.jpeg
     
  15. Beefer518

    Beefer518 Well-Known Member

    After re-reading the descriptive text for the die pairs in the link I included earlier, I'm starting to think @Rick Stachowski is correct on Die #1. The die crack, which we were looking for before, is not always present.
    WE is mushy enough, but the T, U, and T should be stronger then the R & S, and I don't really see that, but that could be because of a number of things.
    Second 2 is weaker then the first 2
    Reverse is crazy weak.

    I dunno.....
     
  16. Justin stachowski

    Justin stachowski New Member

    Drinks for everyone...
     
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  17. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    As far as my knowledge is concerned the more metal flow from devices, and waviness of the die is a sign of a later die state. Not the other way around. The reverse shown does show some deterioration around the O just not the amount in the pic from linc cent resource.
    Second you see a die crack that just isn't there.
    Here is another photo of the reverse. IMG_0001_1.JPG and a close up of the "die crack" area. IMG_0001.JPG

    Also, if we use the EPU photos from http://www.lincolncentresource.com/1922Ddievarieties.html
    And you say that the reverse of the 22 weak D in question is a later die state.
    EPU in a later die state could trail into the rim as the rev. photo'ed in Die pair 1 but beings that die cracks get stronger as the die progresses we should see a major die crack identifying it as 1.

    In this case, I am using die pair 3 as an example. Using the cent in question EPU extends toward the rim like die pair 3, and starting with R is starts to fade from the rim detail. Die pair 1 does not fade to the rim and EPU is much more detailed, than die pair 3.
     
  18. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    I am guessing there is a relation? I noticed that this is you first post. Welcome aboard.
     
  19. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    :rolleyes: THERE IS NO CRACK! :oops::sorry: Perhaps it's there and I can't see it either.:D
     
  20. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    I don't see many cracks there, but perhaps they are there?

    Instead of " I see Dead People", it is now " I see many cracks that aren't there" .
     
  21. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    WOW! Nice coin! I had this one slabbed:

    1922DplainGrandpa.jpg 1922DplainGrandpaREV.jpg 1922DnoDanacsVG8.jpg
     
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