Counterfeit Detection #1

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Insider, Nov 3, 2017.

  1. UniqueDesigns

    UniqueDesigns Civil War Token Collector

    You think highly about your posts, ey?
    Why shouldn't I want mine read.
    I replied to your OP with thoughtful care.
    You'll have to ask the Mod. to Replace my deleted post, so you can read that my thoughts were Mint Processes related.
    I have never bothered to study gold coins until your OP about these 2 Incomplete images and then Limited data they provided.
    I've moved away from most US Minted coins, especially the varieties that are sure to be Counterfeited. They're all Overrated.
    Except for Mint Errors.
    As stated under my avitar, I study the more rare than coins, Civil War Tokens.
    My observations on your 2 picts were limited to the picts.
    I'd replied that I'd prefer to have the actual gold coins in hand.

    Your Title was your message that #1 was a counterfeit, leaving your responders to think that #2 was Genuine.
    So, I replied on that premise.

    BTW, I don't need to be 'forgiven'
    You're the trickster, trying to get over on your post readers/responders.

    Oh, What Fun. Trick or Treat.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2017
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  3. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    What a load this is....

    This forum desperately needs threads like I'm sure this was intended to be, but no. Instead it's sullied and crapped up with this nonsense.

    How about this? If your deleted post was so important, simply post it again; if you don't wish to spend "hours" doing so, the CliffsNotes version will surely suffice. Easy-peasy.
     
    Insider likes this.
  4. UniqueDesigns

    UniqueDesigns Civil War Token Collector

    Deleting a post from our view should not remove it from CoinTalks archives.
     
  5. Evan8

    Evan8 A Little Off Center

    Member since 2009. 78 messages. There have been some really stupid and useless threads on this forum. Where was your input then? Why come out of hiding to scum up this thread? Do everyone a favor and go back to shadows and lurk.
     
  6. UniqueDesigns

    UniqueDesigns Civil War Token Collector

    As BooksB4Coins wrote, 'This forum desperately needs threads"
    I posted a reply without anything worthy of it being removed by the Mod.
    Everything I asked about was the manufacturing processes at the US Mint.
    Since no one here got to read Any of it, due to the Mods' getting gun hoe,
    then You Know Nothing about what happened.
    So, Shut It, until you get the Real Posted Commentary.
    If it's not re-posted . . . Your Loss.

    BTW, I haven't posted much since the subjects are not very interesting to me.
    Maybe That's why the site is in need of good posters.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  7. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    :yawn: I recommend any member wishing to know about how "most overrated US minted coins" are made read Roger Burdette's book From Mine to Mint. The ANA also offers a correspondence course on the subject.

    Until tomorrow, I'll share some things I've learned in my classes:

    If something does not interest you, you :bucktooth: probably will not be very good at it. :smuggrin:

    Trust no one :troll: and verify everything :bookworm:. It's good training. Now, whenever I examine a coin to buy, I'm looking for anything wrong with it! I cannot say for sure, but I'll bet that the professionals at the TPGS have targets on their backs. It's a big game called, "LET'S SEE WHAT WE CAN GET PASS THEM." Same goes for a grading/authentication class. There is no such thing as "fair play." That's for sissies and :bigtears::bigtears:.

    As for my OP, the class was shown the four slides I posted. The instructor explained how indistinct the designs were in the first one compared to the second. The entire class assumed that the bottom coin was a genuine specimen! Then he explained that both were fakes and how quickly (less than a decade) the quality of the fakes had improved. I hinted in my post that the instructor was a joker.

    I am also a joker. This is the second time I have posted comparison images on Coin Talk Forum using two counterfeit coins. I do not wish to embarrass anyone and you should not be. The TPGS look at actual coins, not photos. :facepalm: Anyway, I took heat for it and that's OK as long as some of you learn from it.

    BTW if any token collectors are reading this thread, in the past year or two, some deceptive counterfeit Civil War tokens have been seen in the numismatic marketplace. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  8. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    Assuming we can still bring this thread back on track lol

    I can't speak for US coins as I don't specialize in that, but tool marks such as lathe lines are pretty common on a lot of older foreign coins. Russian coppers from the mid-late 19th century are a good example. I've often seen people citing such marks as suspicious even though they are completely normal on genuine coins.
    I don't have any pictures on hand as I've never taken special notice of something that appears commonplace. I would assume from your response that it is not as commonplace on US coins of the period.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
    Insider likes this.
  9. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    Speaking of Middle Eastern counterfeits, I find these very interesting. I can't quite call them collector forgeries, nor can I call them contemporary circulating counterfeits. They are somewhere in between. British commonwealth sovereigns were often the target, but I know some US quarter and half eagles were popular as well. From what I know they were made simply because they were in demand for purely monetary purposes in the region and were in short supply (a la Maria Theresia thaler). Often they were marked by the manufacturer. For example "MOM21" is something I've seen on pieces made for this purpose.
    That said, these are generally copies of common bullion pieces rather than the pieces like you posted which would be far into the realm of collectible value beyond bullion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about. I did not delete a post made by you or anybody else in this thread.

    And since I can check the history of everything that happens on this forum I know for fact that no other moderator deleted one either.
     
    thomas mozzillo, Insider and ldhair like this.
  11. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    I hope we will here more on why coin #2 is a fake. To my eyes, the images posted don't show anything definitive. But then, I'm no expert. Full size images would be helpful, if they are available. One of the mainstays of gold coin counterfeit detection is knowing that fakes will have repeating marks (usually depressions) acquired during the transfer die process. The TPG's know what to look for in the different series. I don't see any on the second coin posted (there is a rounded mark in the field but it seems to have sharp edges unlike depressions which are softer).
    Re: "spikes" In up to 3% of cases, coins with these are in fact genuine, especially on Liberty head coins from the late 19th-early 20th century (Fivaz, US Gold Coin Counterfeit Detection guide, p. 5).
     
    Insider likes this.
  12. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    Fun thread insider.
    In my early days, I didn't have the money to collect gold. When I did have the money, I didn't have the education needed to take the risk. Thanks for sharing. I love to learn.
     
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  13. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    A few quick comments...a soon as I woke up, made my coffee and sat down to finish this thread Big Money hit me with a to-do list for the day! I've got about ten minutes grace so more later.


    Numismat, posted: I can't speak for US coins as I don't specialize in that, but tool marks such as lathe lines are pretty common on a lot of older foreign coins. Russian coppers from the mid-late 19th century are a good example. I've often seen people citing such marks as suspicious even though they are completely normal on genuine coins.
    I don't have any pictures on hand as I've never taken special notice of something that appears commonplace. I would assume from your response that it is not as commonplace on US coins of the period."

    Great clarification. As you have pointed out, the coins from different countries during the same relative time period using similar minting methods generally have the same characteristics.

    I should have been more clear. Just about anything that is done to a die will have an effect on the coin that is struck with it. So technically, lathe lines can probably be lumped in with "tooling." So can efforts at the mint to strengthen the design with an engraving tool. Additionally, any use of a tool to remove defects or rust on a die is "tooling." " Tooling" is also used by professional authenticators to describe struck coins with added details such as the hair over the ear od a Morgan dollar or the bands on a dime. That said, there are cases of genuine tooling done by the minting authority to genuine dies and the same types of tooling done to fake dies. My error in this thread was to call the "spike tooling" from the denticals simply "tool" marks although that's what they are called. The "spike" part of the description is just an adjective that describes the shape of most of them.

    More after chores.

    PS I have attended several of Bill's informative presentations and have a copy of his book. If you can pick one up, I recommend it as a great introduction to counterfeit detection. PCGS, the ANA Correspondence course, and the Counterfeit Reprints from The Numismatist are also important.

    As to this statement: Re: "spikes" In up to 3% of cases, coins with these are in fact genuine, especially on Liberty head coins from the late 19th-early 20th century (Fivaz, US Gold Coin Counterfeit Detection guide, p. 5).

    IMHO, Bill's percentage is high. From what I have seen after reading his book, the percentage of "spike" tool marks on genuine coins is less than 1%. Regarding my opinion, I'll paraphrase something said by that "joker":cool::cigar: authentication instructor who liked to challenge his students: "Don't believe what you read, test it to see if it's true." I have for myself. :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  14. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    Fivaz was quoting Randy Campbell of ANACS, who I expect has evaluated a large enough sample of raw gold coins to know what he is talking about.
     
  15. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    "Both are counterfeit." -Ed Wood
     
  16. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    ksparrow, posted: "Fivaz was quoting Randy Campbell of ANACS, who I expect has evaluated a large enough sample of raw gold coins to know what he is talking about."

    Thanks, I stand corrected and my apologies to Bill Fivaz. Some poster failed to mention that Randy Campbell was being quoted. Randy has a little more experience authenticating coins than Mr. Fivaz.

    So my original post needs to be reworded in this way:

    While I know and respect Randy Campbell's opinions, IMHO, his percentage is too high. From what I have seen during my professional career, the actual percentage of "spike" tool marks on genuine coins is less than 1%.

    Trust me on this as the instructor who cited this number and actually "coined" the words "spike tool mark" was authenticating coins professionally over a decade before Mr. Campbell even heard of the things! He has written and used in class an amusing (not at the time) story about calling the first genuine coin with spike tool marks (a Carson City $20) that ANACS authenticators ever saw - COUNTERFEIT! The error was corrected.

    BTW, I was told that episode is when one of the now well-known "rules of coin authentication" originated: "Sooner or later, every characteristic seen on a counterfeit coin can be found on a genuine specimen and every characteristic on a genuine coin can be found on a counterfeit."


    That same instructor originated rule #1. "In order to authenticate a coin, you need to know what the genuine specimen looks like." We learned that this rule came about when the authenticators almost called a well worn genuine Pan Pac Slug counterfeit because it looked like a cast counterfeit. These coins were struck on a medal press and they look completely different than you would expect under a microscope.

    I've had some good instructors at seminars! :D PS Randy Campbell is one of them.
     
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  17. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    UPDATE: I figured out a possible reason I disagree with the percentage cited in the book. Many genuine coins have thin die polish in between and a tiny amount past the tips of the denticals. Die polish is NOT THE SAME as the thicker "tool marks = spike tool marks." However, if we add those marks in, I can see a figure closer to the 3% cited in the book.

    Additionaly, doing more research :bookworm:, I'm lowering my percentage of spike tool marks on genuine coins to less than .05%. :jawdrop:
     
  18. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    I will admit, this surprised me. I knew that the first coin was clearly a counterfeit but the second one looked good to me.

    I'm not a $1 gold guy so I don't know these coins that well. When I first read your post I assumed that I had compared to two coins and seen the obvious differences in sharpness and concluded #1 was fake and #2 was real. I thought I based my conclusions on the differences alone. Now that I have gone back and looked at the second coin again knowing it's a fake...nothing that I am seeing jumps out at me. Can you provide a little more details on how you can tell that coin #2 is a counterfeit. What details should I be looking for that I have missed.

    I have read the rest of this thread to date and don't see an answer to my question yet posted. If I missed it, I apologize.

    So was mine at that time...you must be an Oregon fan too. ;)
     
  19. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    CamaroDMD, asks: "Now that I have gone back and looked at the second coin again knowing it's a fake...nothing that I am seeing jumps out at me. Can you provide a little more details on how you can tell that coin #2 is a counterfeit. What details should I be looking for that I have missed."

    I thought someone here might catch my "trick" so I made it virtually impossible. These were the images used in the class. The object my post and the class lesson was to show the difference in sharpness between two die-struck coins and to show what "fatty," "mushy," etc. looks like. As soon as I lay my hands on a genuine 1887 gold dollar (someone may do this using their genuine coin and my bottom two images) I'll post the comparison between both. Then the C/F 1887 should look "mushy" compared to the sharpness of the genuine!

    Unfortunately, I feel that I must also add that this post was not made to embarrass any [​IMG] and you should not be. The TPGS look at actual coins, not photos. Hopefully, after reading this, some will understand and be able to visualize a few terms used to describe the appearance seen of many counterfeits. edited

    PS :sorry: I got blasted :punch::rage::stop::troll: here on CT the first time I did a similar posting. ASK ME IF I CARE. :p:D Therefore, I've decided to continue and look for #2.

    PPS There is nothing significant in the bottom image to answer this question: "What details should I be looking for that I have missed." The only thing I can answer is that compared to the sharpness seen on a genuine 1887 dollar, the design on the bottom coin is also "mushy!" :facepalm: ;) Know what the genuine coin should look like!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2017
  20. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    I honestly appreciate these kinds of posts. I like being challenged and making mistakes (or being fooled in this case) serves as a better learning tool than simply being shown the answer.

    Good to know. I will have to go over to HA.com and look at some pics there and compare them to these.
     
  21. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    This is the best I can do for now. Different dates!
     

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