How do graders spot counterfeits?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by ibuycoinsoffebay, Nov 1, 2017.

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  1. tpsadler

    tpsadler Numismatist

    The long and short answer is ... there is not a short cut to experience. True in all examples of life ... Even the experts can be mistaken. Education and practice will only make each of us better Numismatists. Always be ready to learn :)
     
    tpsadler, Nov 2, 2017
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  3. harley bissell

    harley bissell Well-Known Member

    I would think that the first thing they would do is weigh the coin. If it is the right weight they could compare it to photos of known counterfeits. If it passes that I would examine the surfaces and see if anything is hinky. On key dates there are known features and they would have to be there for them to call it genuine.
     
    harley bissell, Nov 2, 2017
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  4. Lemme Caution

    Lemme Caution Well-Known Member

    It's nice to know that they would own up to an inconclusive finding rather than flip a coin as to the truth. :vulcan:
     
    Lemme Caution, Nov 3, 2017
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  5. Lemme Caution

    Lemme Caution Well-Known Member

    From having watched more than one documentary about the incredible "success stories" of some of the world's most talented art forgers I can readily testify to the on-point validity of your remarks.
     
    Lemme Caution, Nov 3, 2017
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  6. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    This is one area where being a member of an active coin club is invaluable. Just about any decent club will have a guy or two who specializes in fakes, and can show what to watch for.

    I learned more about modern bullion fakes (in this case, fake "Prospectors") from attending one discussion at an ANA show (Philly, 2012), than from ANYTHING I might experience on a bourse floor. You really DO need to get into those meeting rooms and step away from the tables occasionally.
     
    V. Kurt Bellman, Nov 3, 2017
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  7. Lemme Caution

    Lemme Caution Well-Known Member

    Good, important advice. Thanks. :)
     
    Lemme Caution, Nov 3, 2017
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  8. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    That makes sense but I learned :bookworm: in a seminar that as far back as the late 1970's, some professional authenticators stopped weighing coins, measuring them (thickness and diameter), and taking their specific gravity because any truly deceptive counterfeit passed all these tests! :jawdrop::facepalm:
     
    Insider, Nov 3, 2017
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  9. Lemme Caution

    Lemme Caution Well-Known Member

    Well, that's reassuring. :nailbiting:
     
    Lemme Caution, Nov 3, 2017
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  10. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    It's also a fairly predictable and common sense move if one objectively thinks about it.
     
    BooksB4Coins, Nov 3, 2017
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  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Different people learn it at different times. But even in the 70's it wasn't anything new, far from it in fact. Learning that goes back at least a couple hundred years.

    Well, don't bite all your nails off. You see, what he knows but failed to mention to you is that good counterfeits are identified by die diagnostics, not by weight, measurements, or specific gravity. That's because good counterfeits are made to original spec, right size, right weight, right fineness of metals. So all of those tests will only tell you that the coin is genuine, even though it is not.

    What a lot of folks also don't realize is that it's not just unscrupulous individuals who make counterfeits. Governments, government mints in fact, have often engaged in making counterfeit coins. And when you have the resources of a government it's not that hard to do. But even that is not something new, that practice also goes back hundreds of years. Which is why what I mentioned above has been well known for hundreds of years. Granted, well known is a relative term. No, it is not well known by the public at large but it is well known by people who know such things - experienced numismatists.

    In the 60's and 70's there were huge factories in the middle east turning out counterfeit gold coins, coins from many different countries all over the world. And some of these counterfeits were so good that even fooled the national mints in the country of origin. For example, counterfeit gold sovereigns were produced that even the Royal Mint could not identify as counterfeits. But experienced numismatists could - because of die diagnostics.

    As far back as the 1700's the Russian Royal Mint had an entire program dedicated to counterfeiting Netherlands gold ducats - and this program continued for almost 200 years ! It got so bad that the mint in the Netherlands actually stopped making gold ducats for a time. Eventually, due to diplomatic efforts the Russians quit and the Netherlands resumed minting their coins. And the quality of those counterfeits, well let's just say that they are so good that NGC, PCGS, ICG, and ANACS cannot identify them most of the time. There are countless counterfeit Netherland gold ducats in TPG slabs, labeled as genuine. And there are more being slabbed as genuine even today ! I can identify them using die diagnostics, a handful of others across the world can identify them, but most of those at the TPGs cannot identify them.

    And there are other coins from other countries that are much the same. Usually it is only someone who specializes in those specific coins who can identify them.

    So the perfect counterfeit ? Producing them is nothing new, and no it's not due to increases in technology. The technology to produce "perfect counterfeits" has existed for hundreds of years. And the counter to it - is knowledge, knowledge that is gained by experience.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 3, 2017
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  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    GDJMSP, Nov 3, 2017
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  13. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    I wouldn't expect them to weigh them unless they suspect they are fake. And if they RECOGNIZE them as fake I wouldn't expect them to weigh them at all.
     
    Conder101, Nov 3, 2017
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  14. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    SuperDave, Nov 3, 2017
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  15. Lemme Caution

    Lemme Caution Well-Known Member

    Oh, I guess I should point out that I wasn't really making reference to the fact that the professional authenticators had given up on trying to differentiate between originals and counterfeits; my ironic "that's reassuring" observation was meant strictly in regard to how very successful the counterfeiters are across the board at beating the system.
     
    Lemme Caution, Nov 3, 2017
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  16. Lemme Caution

    Lemme Caution Well-Known Member

    A lot to digest, but all of it very educational and ultimately useful.
     
    Lemme Caution, Nov 3, 2017
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  17. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Just an aside from the "old days." I was told that the folks at the ANA's certification service weighed every coin sent in to help identify them along with a photograph of both sides. It would be interesting to find out if NGC ancients weighs every coin they get to help authenticate them - I doubt it.
     
    Insider, Nov 3, 2017
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  18. Lemme Caution

    Lemme Caution Well-Known Member

    Aha! :pompous:
     
    Lemme Caution, Nov 3, 2017
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  19. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    I didn't take it as such, but do appreciate the clarification. Mostly, it was intended as a simple observation.


    "Beating the system" how? I ask simply because I don't believe it's to the point one can reasonably say they, as a whole, have been "very successful" in doing so, at least not yet or to the level modern technology could potentially allow for.
     
    BooksB4Coins, Nov 3, 2017
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  20. Lemme Caution

    Lemme Caution Well-Known Member

    Uncle! :facepalm:
     
    Lemme Caution, Nov 3, 2017
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  21. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    I'll keep my interpretation of what, in this particular case, that was intended to mean neutral, but my question was asked with the utmost sincerity.
     
    BooksB4Coins, Nov 3, 2017
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