How Many Exist?

Just read in the 10/17 Numismatist that only 60 Eid Mar denarii exist? I've seen at least two in a dealers stock on many occasions. What do you think about the number 60? Seems like a rather strong opinion that does not make sense to me. Did this number come out of an estimate in some auction catalogue? Or, is this like "common knowledge" know to all ancient collectors of the series? Thanks.

 

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From Harlan Berk's 100 Greatest Ancient Coins:

In a corpus of the issue published in 1989, H.A. Cahn listed 56 denarii and also two aurei of the type, from 8 obverse and 26 reverse dies. Today the population is about 80...

I have read (although I can't remember where) estimates as high as 135 of these coins in existence.

 

It's always difficult to say exactly how many "exist", I think the best anyone can say is how many examples are known to them(or someone else) and believed to be authentic. Cahn knew of 56 and at least a few new examples have come to market since then as well as at least one new example found in an archaeological context(cf. Adam-Veleni Polixeni papers on the finds at Florina). Somewhere in the 60-80 range sounds about right for the number of examples known to me without actually taking the time to sit down and count them but for the number that actually exist, there's really no telling given the reality of how ancients are found and how hoards come to market. Given the number of dies used to strike EID MAR denarii I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that a hoard containing several examples is found at some point.

 

I would think that many of us have coin types with a population that low or lower. Of course the Eid Mar is a historically important and popular type. I think we pretty much all want one.

 

Also as far as where Cahn got his number, he consulted several major museum collections, hoard reports and a considerable number of auction catalogs going back to the 19th century.

 

Thanks! I have no way of knowing but if there are not at least 125 around I should be shocked! I always thought they were priced around $1000 (Anyone know how much a coin in Fine would have cost in the late 1960's?)

A former dealer/boss of mine placed at least two with collectors. At the time, as I held one, I was only impressed with the story and had no idea of their rarity!

Get this: I was just getting ready to post that with so few around, we should all get one in our collection FAST! Then I went to look for one to buy.
Anyway, I just looked up current prices...Wow. $XXX,XXX! Did we all miss the boat or what.

 

I've heard there's work being done on updating the population census so I suspect we'll hear more precise numbers soon. I'm guessing somewhere in the region of 150-200 exist and there is some small group of them still being trickled out. The one I bought in 2014 had no pedigree and the subsequent five examples to come to market also haven't had pedigrees.

Between the cultural property/import discussions and the potential for more examples to be found, I think it's critically important to require a pedigree for a type like the Eid Mar, which makes acquiring the "right" coin harder.

 

Fourree's 'should' be cheaper for those looking. I don't know if those are included in any estimates?

 

How many of any coin will always be a minimum with the true number higher. If I remember right, the Cleo VII tet I bought they had estimated in RPC something like 60 known, but I would be shocked if the number isn't more like 300-400.

The only caveat I would say is do not compare availability with rarity. Some very rare coins have come onto the market a few years in a row making them seem more common, and some simply scarce coins make not happen to be on the market for a few years. Also, when you see something like an Eid Mar for sale you remember it, so it may appear more common than it really is. I fight that with the Cleo's I collect. I remember every one I see for sale, so in my mind they seem more common than they probably really are.

 

It is a good bet that some Eid Mar coins in the market are not genuine. On a coin such as this, the microscopic characteristics, fabric, and analysis of the alloy for these as well as dies should have already been mapped out by specialists. Matching a die on an ancient alone, is not good enough anymore. In addition to a chemical analysis, every piece should be checked for matching marks and then determine if they are on the 100% genuine coins from long-held collections. I'll bet this was never done.

You all must know that the technology to successfully duplicate the dies of these pieces was around in the 1980's. Who knows what can be produced almost twenty years later!

Anyone guess what these were selling for (low grade) in the late 1960's?

 

In the current total Eid-Mar known, I also wonder whether only the denarii and aureii are included, or also the fourrées?
Anyway, I believe that new coins will appear, even more with the advent of the detectorism and the way it has been spreading. Perhaps the biggest problem is precisely in the ancient regions where they were struck and had the largest circulation. The current countries (Greece and Turkey) have great legislative barriers to the trading of ancient coins. If they are found, they probably will not be able to leave, except in an illegal way, for effective commercialization or auctions. By the number of known dies, I have two hypotheses: either new pieces will still be found, or destroyed / restruck after the defeat of the "liberatores."

 

How many Fel Temp Reparatio types exist? - gotta be in the tens or hundreds of thousands if not more...

 

Again, according to Harlan Berk's 100 Greatest Ancient Coins:

In the Hess-Leu sale of 1958 an Extremely Fine denarius made only SFr 2,900.

In 1958, this was about $676. Adjusted for inflation, this amounts to slightly less than $6,000 in today's dollars.

Also from Berk:

...in New York in 1985 on the night the Chicago Bears lost to Miami one failed to sell at $25,000...

Berk doesn't state whether this was also an EF example.

 

Naturally, the dealer located in Chicago finds a way to slip in the Bears near perfect season and the last time they won the Super Bowl

 

A well known Republican collector sold his Eid Mar because it wasn't in very good condition thinking he could just get another one in better shape

 

...

 

There are currently somewhere between 125 and 150 known authentic examples, known meaning out of the ground and seen by someone who would recognize what they are looking at. This includes a number of specimens that have never been sold or published. There may be more that are still buried or sitting somewhere with someone who doesn’t know what they have. I’ve personally handled about 35 different examples (after the first ten or so you quit counting). There are a handful of fourres and thousands of forgeries.

Barry Murphy.

 

How I wish just one fourrée...

 

Those statistics would steer me clear away from this coin even if I was in the financial position to be able to justify the purchase of one!

Peter

 

Too risky! I'm not that kind of collector. Ancient collecting is made up of all kinds of different types of collectors. I guess I'm in the low end category (One of @Sallent 's Bottom Feeder Club members). It doesn't take much to impress me. If it's 2000 years old, no matter what condition it's in—I'm wide-eyed and speechless—I'm in awe!