Keep it or Return it

Between 1:51 and 1:52 there were 7 bids and it went from $500 to $1050.

 

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Well I guess it depends on what level people are on as for many a 4 digit sum of money really isn't all that much. People regularly spend even more than that in this hobby without having any real knowledge themselves and relying completely on the knowledge or opinion or another. How many collectors that buy 4, 5, 6 digit or more coins do you think could do so with an 'absolute determination' without the TPG's providing all the knowledge on those coins for them?

 

I think that was part of the point though. If someone wants to gamble trying to get something cheaper then you're going to get burned sometimes

 

god forbid it ever be 5+s in blue.

 

But there's difference between something being misrepresented and someone taking a risk thinking that a coins a higher grade than it is or such and such variety. I know I've taken plenty of lumps through the latter by thinking I saw something in a coin that I couldn't verify until I had it in hand. And when I lose I eat the cost as it was my fault it wasn't advertised as being anything except what it was. But buying something misrepresented and finding out you got burned while sure it's a learning lesson it's also likely because of deception or ignorance on the part of the seller and they should take a return.

 

I thought that ebay wouldn't allow a grade description unless it was by a TPG.

 

If memory serves me, I believe this is why it's part of the photograph as opposed to the written description although it really doesn't make much of a difference.

 

Which is why the numbers are all "crossed out".... and +++++++ added below the number, but many of the buyers are seeing those same numbers on legit graded coins at shows or shops and are accepting them as honest grades.

It's amazing to see people in here saying well if the person is uneducated well that's what they deserve. I don't know jack about cars. Thankfully, when I walk into a local mechanic, I know I can get an honest appraisal without fear of being over charged. Why would it be any different than to assume a seller online selling hundreds if not thousands of coins would do that. It would be one thing if it didn't say proof all over it and they bid it up like that, but you can clearly see two bidders look at a seller with 99.9% positive and only 2 negatives in the last year and think they can trust the grade on the 2x2, or at least close to that grade. Before I knew how to grade I would assume what I bought was labeled correctly. Some people enjoy their hobby their own ways. Not everyone wants to get into the details of knowing the die markings for a proof compared to just a PL Morgan but expect when a dealer says it's a proof, it is what they say it is.

And to say only serious collectors will throw $1200 at a coin, look at how many people just threw $1,000 at a cell phone....

 

And what about the person who, even know they know little to nothing about cars and refuses to request the help of someone that does, decides to buy grandma's car only driven to church on Sundays, simply because they think they can get it at a price better than the competition, or because they think they can flip it for a profit? Should someone else have to shoulder the burden for them too, or should they accept responsibility for their choices/stupidity?

You're right regarding how people can enjoy their hobby as they see fit, and such people have every opportunity to search out a reliable, truly knowledgeable, and trustworthy dealer to assist them, but instead they're making the decision to use the world's largest yard sale, expecting the same as they would if dealing with an independent professional. Perhaps you'll disagree, sir, but I see a problem with this. Surely you could find someone other than your qualified local mechanic to work on your car cheaper, but would it be wise to expect the same results?

Please don't get me wrong here; I don't condone what this seller has done in any way, shape, or form, but I also refuse to place all blame on him when the bidders made a conscious decision to chase after what they clearly do not understand. If the bidder was simply new, ignorant, and didn't know any better, then yes.... I believe they deserve an out. However, there are simply too many today who use eBay as a crutch, who know that they don't have to be responsible, and that they can often make the other guy pay for their mistakes. I'm sorry, but this is bad for the health and future of this hobby, but will continue as long as there are those who are willing to give them a pass. To put in simply: there's plenty of guilt to go around with this one.

 

There certainly is a difference and I'm speaking more in general terms than this particular instance. That said I also think people severely under estimate peoples ability. If it's a snake oil salesman in a coin shop or a coin show I would agree, but it was online. Being online means people can look up all sorts of things in a matter of minutes. I highly doubt who ever won that just decided they were going to get into coins and were going to start at that price level. Far more likely someone got tempted to take a shot hoping to make money if it grades as a proof or a dcam and from the final price I am thinking they thought dcam.

Everyone always assumes it's someone helpless being taken advantage of but 99 percent of collectors don't start with four figure purchases and there are a lot more people taking risks on things like that hoping to make some money than most realize. That's why it keeps working, it's almost never because someone decided to dabble in a four figure coin.

Regardless though what's said on a 2x2 should be meaningless to buyers. That's a grade from someone trying to make money. Only thing a buyer should be concerned with is the price and if they agree that is what it is. I've also advocated for a long time stick to slabbed coins on eBay and online for numismatic valued ones and especially for four figure coins.

Except legit graded coins are in slabs from a TPG, not handwritten on 2x2 by someone who is trying to make money off the sale of them. TPGs wouldn't have succeeded and continue to thrive and grow if those grades were meaningful.

And every person who bought that phone new exactly what they were doing. That's also a bad comparison since phones are peoples lifeblood now.

 

Automatic bidding; somebody had a high bid set and someone else progressively forced more of that bid to be invoked by software.

At some point between my last post and this one, the nature of the bidding record was changed. When I last posted, I could see the bidder identities (per Ebay's "disguised names" method). Now I can't.

 

I've stated this before, Doug: I take out the high and the low outliers of an eBay completed listing sales price, as well as anomalies such as rainbow toning, then add up the remaining sales and divide to come up with the market value of a particular coin. Easy! And I trust that system.

 

Has nothing to do with wanting to believe anything, you're wrong just because you're wrong. You keep trying to convince people to completely ignore what is almost certainly the largest coin seller on the planet by volume as a data source

 

This is so frustrating, and at this sort of price level, it's obvious that there may be some shill bidding going on. I've been a buyer — and formerly a seller, too — on eBay since 1998, bidding on collectables in several of my hobbies. In the old days, the presence of bidding histories helped me to recognize whether I was up against persistent bidders and, indeed, even shill bidders who were jacking up the prices. All of that is gone.

Just today I had to deal with a coin seller who re-listed what turned out to be a different coin while using the very same "stock photo" of a particularly nice 1919S WLH. When I contacted him to ask if I would be receiving the coin in the photo since this coin was precisely what I was looking for, he became indignant, cancelled my order and refunded my payment. His response was something to the effect that I must be one of those picayune coin collectors who cannot be satisfied with anything.

Since I am not one to burden myself with returns on small-cost purchases, I would have made a comment as I often do saying, "Seller's photo extremely flattering to the coin received" and left it at that. Spending a few hundred on a coin would be something different.