Comparison Thread: Vespasian Denarii

Collected from the "What Your Budget Buys..." threads:

For $20 or less:


(randygeki)


(Smojo)

For $30 ($21 - $40):


(dougsmit)

For $50 ($41 - $64):


(Ajax)

For $75 ($65 - $85):


(David Atherton)

My first impression of these coins is that they're all well centered and have recognizable portraits of Vespasian, but clearly for increasing price you get increasing detail.

Other observations and comments?

 

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The first (mine) one is actually Titus, but was sold as Vespasian so still representative.

 

Why stop at $75? Vespasian comes at at least ten times that... or is it 100 times?

$130 (more if smoother - less if the mintmark was weaker)


$200 (common and low grade but way too popular - nice examples of the more scarce Judean types get really ridiculous)


$350 (double without the cracks)

 

I looked through all the "budget" threads up to $300 -- eight threads in all -- and these are the Vespasians that I found.

Got a little impatient so I didn't look through the higher priced ones, which can be added by those (like you!) with more patience and industry than I seem to have today...

 

I looked up my records on this coin. I paid a little more than I remember. A total of $175. Not sure whether it's worth it or not except to say it is an uncommon coin, and of the very few I found on vcoins that had more issues than mine were slightly cheaper, and the one that was better than mine cost almost double what I paid for mine.

However, Vcoins is not the standard for prices, so I searched on CNG only to discover this coin is so uncommon CNG has never auctioned one. And I'm not paying $100 a year on another site to search other auction prices, so I'll leave it for you to judge based on what I have.

 

I had no idea that one was even a little scarce. I thought I recalled someone here posting one with a face on Jupiter. Mine was $57 in 2002 which is too long ago to mean anything as a price guide.


I consider vCoins worthless as a standard for prices because their dealers include so many dreamers who price high hoping someone will buy. There are many perfectly legitimate dealers there but, as on eBay, there are some that seem interested in showing coins more than selling them. Auctions make a better guide but only if they report only coins that actually sell. I have seen some on acsearch that report prices but bought that specimen from a show dealer that handles remainders and unsolds at a discount. Being estimated at $300 is not the same thing as actually selling at that price.

 

Beautifull portrait of Vespasianus on your denarius Sallent , at least worth $175 imho
See the PONTIF MAXIM in the under $20 category, I think thats OK.
paid $15 for mine last year:

 

It is rated as 'extremely common' in RIC and I agree with that based on what I've seen in trade. If you want a 'scarce' example of the type, look for one with a left facing portrait.

 

Well, I concluded scarce based on vcoins only having a handful and none sold on CNG. If there are a hundred sitting in some dealer's vault or in a museum, thats another story. Then it would be accurate to say common but just not currently in the marketplace in large quantities.

 

I have coins of Vespasian from a few different price levels. 4 of them are on WildWinds.

Vespasian. AD 69-79. AR Denarius Rome mint. Struck AD 74.
(18.47 mm, 3.39 g, 6h).
Obv: IMP CAESAR VESP AUG Laureate head right
Rev: PONTIF MAXIM Vespasian seated right, holding scepter and branch.
RIC II 685; BMCRE pg. 27 ; RSC 386. SRCV 1 (2000) 2305.
Ex: J. Eric Engstrom Collection
Ex: CNG E-auction 373, Lot 366 April 20, 2016
Paid: 135.00 USD




Egypt, Alexandria. Dattari. Vespasian, 69-79 Diobol circa 70-71 (year 3), Æ
( 26.5mm., 9.15g.)
Obv: Laureate head r.
Rev. Bust of Isis r.; in front, LΓ. RPC 2430 (this coin cited). Dattari-Savio Pl. 14, 382 (this coin).
Brown tone. Very Fine.
From the Dattari collection.
Naville Numismatics Auction #30, Lot 283, April 02, 2017.
Coin depicted in the Wildwinds.com database.
141.00



Vespasian (69-79). AR Denarius (18.08mm, 3.50g, 6h). Rome, AD 75.
Obv: Bare head l. R IMP CEASAR VESPASIANUS AUG
Rev: Pax seated l., resting l. elbow on throne and holding branch.
PON MAX TRP COS VI
RIC II 773 (this coin); RSC –. Extremely Rare variety, near VF.
Ex Vecchi sale 13, 1998, 757.
Ex: St Paul Antiques auction 7 Lot 285 June 11, 2017
Coin depicted in the Wildwinds.com database.
Paid 329.00



Roman Empire, Vespasian 69-79, Denarius,
(17.49 mm 3.24g)
Obv: Laureate head of Vespasian right "IMP CAESAR VESPAS AVG COS II TRPPP" Rev: "AVG" within an wreath, Phi-Alpha monogram above ties. "AVG" in the center. RIC 1414. Ephesos mint, Some roughness on the reverse.
Ex Savoca Auction #9, lot 533 8/21/16, realized 350 Euro + buyer's fee
Lot 152 Aegean Nuismatics Agora Auctions July 20. 2017.
Coin depicted in the Wildwinds.com database
Paid: 386.56 USD



Vespasian, 69-79 A.D. AR Denarius, 3.16g. 21.41mm. Rome, 73 A.D.
Obv: IMP CAES VESP AVG CENS. Laureate head of Vespasian to right.
Rev: MAXIM PONTIF. Nemesis walking to right holding caduceus over snake.
C 385, RIC 544. SRCV I (2000) 2304
Ex: E. E. Clain-Stefanelli collection. Ex: Numismatica Ars Classica - Auction 92 Part 2, Lot 2133 May 24, 2016; Ex: Ed waddell
Coin depicted in the Wildwinds.com database.
Paid: 400.00 USD

 

Well, based on 14 years of trawling Vcoins and many online venues and other sources it is one of the more common types you can find. Put it to you this way, I would have no trouble replacing my example, but would have a very difficult time replacing this denarius which is indeed rated 'very rare' in RIC.

Vespasian
AR Denarius, 3.41g
Rome mint, 76 AD
RIC 853 (R2), BMC p. 34 note, RSC 374
Obv: IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG; Head of Vespasian, bare, l.
Rev: PON MAX TR P COS VII; Pax, bare to the waist, seated l., holding branch extended in r. hand, l. hand on lap
Ex Private Collection.

It comes up in trade maybe once or twice a decade, conversely, there are several Jupiter types a month popping up.

 

Wonderful coin David. I am glad you posted that one because I have the other bare-headed variety. I would love to find one like yours, but as you stated, they are very tough to find.

 

Admittedly, it is an extreme example of a rare type. Probably a better one for the purpose would be the Judaea Capta with palm instead of trophy. Several specimens come up for sale per year. Frequency 'rare'.


Vespasian
AR Denarius, 2.71g
Rome Mint, 69-70 AD
RIC 4 (R), BMC 43, RSC 229
Obv: IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG; Head of Vespasian, laureate, r.
Rev: IVDAEA in ex.; Jewess (as type of Judaea), draped and veiled, seated r. on ground, head inclined downwards, l. knee drawn up, hand bound behind back and fastened to palm-tree
Acquired from Zuzim Judaea, May 2012.

 

Not trying to belabor the point made by David here, or derail this thread, but as I'm a big fan of the use of CNG's sales archive, I wanted to mention that while I think it's great as a guide for prices, it may not always be as good a gauge for rarity. Bear in mind that CNG typically only sells in single lots coins that they can estimate at a minimum of $100 and you'll realise that the number that show up in the archives excludes anything really cheap, such as worn Flavian denarii. That said, they did in fact sell 7 examples of your Vespasian issue:
https://www.cngcoins.com/Search.asp...R_TYPE_ID_2=1&SEARCH_IN_CONTAINER_TYPE_ID_4=1

My junky Vespasian below, bought for about $25, is one that will never darken the pages of a CNG catalog .

 

I certainly agree, an attractive but common coin.

To the right, to the right, to the right, to the right:

To the left, to the left, to the left, to the left:

Now kick, now kick, now kick, now kick
Now walk it by yourself, now walk it by yourself.....

 

Mine is not as nice and is a different obverse legend so there is no direct comparison allowed but it was purchased in May 2017 for $45 from a show only dealer. How much of the $90 difference is condition? How much is legend? How much is venue? How much is provenance? Each of us will have different answers to these questions.

 

I like your coin too, and had I seen it for the price you paid I would have bought it. As for my coin, it spoke to me. I think it was the combination of things you mentioned among others. I loved the toning, the full legends, the condition, and what I considered to be a lively interesting portrait. I just know that when I saw it come up for auction a combination of attributes made me think "that will be mine".

 

Interesting thread. Nice to see other Flavian collectors. Here's a Judea Capta I bought from Forum. It has a wonderful early portrait that has Otho like features including the wig. I think it was a bargain at $200.



And for comparison my IOVIS CVSTOS also from Forum for $165 with a decent pedigree. Great portrait on Vespasian even if Jupiter's face is worn away...

 

@Jay GT4 that IOVIS CVSTOS has an outstanding portrait, I've always admired it. The Jupiter types seem to have really excellent portraits overall. That Capta was a great deal too, I think its worth well more than you paid.

 

Great coins everyone, here is mine: