Comparison Thread: Julius Caesar Elephant Denarius

It had been suggested, following the overwhelming success of the "What Your Budget Buys" threads, we start threads comparing three similar coins from different price ranges.

Since very few of the collectors here actually own multiple similar coins across multiple price ranges, I thought I'd kick off the action with three coins (not mine) taken from those threads and ask the collectors here to comment on what you get for different prices.

Here are three examples of the popular Julius Caesar Elephant denarius:

$300, Orfew's collection:


$700 (adjusted for inflation from 1993), Cucumbor's collection:


$1600, 4to2CentBC's collection:


One observation: Cucumbor's coin (middle above) would probably increase in price closer to 4to2CentBC's coin due to market conditions, so it may not be really representative of a $700 coin in today's market.

A question: for those collectors seeking this particular coin type, how do you view the price difference vs. the difference in condition?

Also, please feel free to add your own examples and prices for this coin.

 

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This is a great idea.

 

Assuming Cucumber's coin would still cost the same, it is the one I would prefer when considering price. Of course 4to2CentBC's coin is very desirable; I just couldn't handle the price without a lot of accompanying heartburn.

 

I am not a typical collector, and probably a poor example of a Numismatist. I have expressed my appreciation for capturing high quality coins in the 10k+ thread:

"I focus on critical junctures in Human History and those placemarkers (mainly coins) that allow me to remotely touch those times.

Although I enjoy having my coins gently worn (circulation / actually touched by several people from those times), I can appreciate and, now, better understand having a pristine condition as a focus. I see that possessing the coin exactly as it was minted as a clear communication of what the Celator, Moneyer, and/or Issuing Authority was communicating through the Art of that Coin"

Along those lines, I captured mine with circulation wear as well as AE adhesion with no qualms... This one was struck as Caesar was crossing the Rubicon, throwing Roman History into a maelstrom...


RR Caesar AR Denarius 49 BCE Traveling Mint Elephant-Pontificates Sear 1399 Craw 443-1

All stated: I actually enjoy ALL THREE of their coins for their history! I also appreciate the DETAIL and STRIKE of @4to2centBC 's gorgeous coin; the real purchasing VALUE of @Cucumbor 's coin; and the great PRICE that @Orfew was able to get his coin. Each did WELL for the conditions that they were striving for!

 

$40 in 1989 - I'm not sure how you allow for 28 years or, for that matter, the relative deficiency from chips and scratches vs. centering or style.

If I were offered these coins at the same price, I'd take Cucumbor's first despite the bold reverse strike of the 4to2 coin. We also need a representative of the dumpy elephant style (worse below, IMHO, due to the terrible snake that tends to accompany the poor elephant).
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=155720

There are many unworn elephants but finding them centered and well struck seems to be a task. The 4to2 coin has a great snake head. I wonder how many bidders notice such things.

 

Speaking of my coin shown above, I will say that it has issues. There is some honest wear and the coin was struck off centre. Also, part of the trunk is off the flan. However, I would buy this coin again for the price I paid with no hesitation. There is a lot of good detail remaining on the coin. The elephant's legs have some nice detail and the name "Caesar" is rendered very nicely imho.

There was another reason to buy this coin, I liked the provenance. This coin was once part of E.E. Clain-Stefanelli's collection. I like having pedigreed coins in my collection. I have 4 coins from this collection.

Why did I pay 300.00 for this denarius? I liked it, I wanted it, and I felt 300.00 was more than a fair price.

As for the other coins shown, I really like @Cucumbor 's coin. I would have no hesitation in spending 700.00 for that coin, but I would also buy the one I bought.

 

agreed with Bing

 

I recently got this one for $265 all in, which I think was a steal. The pitting/black marks and o/c brought the price down, but it has very good detail. Worth as much as Orfew's, in my opinion (and I think he got a good deal also).


I've had one of these on my list for quite some time, and it has seemed to me that the prices have been rising fairly steadily over the past few years. Cucumbor's would be a steal today at $700, and 42Cent's is a fair price (very sharp detail).

One thing that really helps make these affordable is when Caesar's name isn't fully present. Does someone have one like that? (@Alegandron's has issues there, but he didn't mention his cost.)

 

I'd say the best way to get a feel for pricing & what features matter to buyers is to search for a specific type on acsearch, and order the results by ascending hammer price, remembering to add 20% or so for auction fees and shipping. (Of course, you have to pay attention to dates also. Reverse-ordering by date is also useful.)

You need a subscription at acsearch to be able to see pricing, but IMO it is well worth it.

 

Ides has already mentioned this, but I think it bears repeating that there’s very little chance of any of us scoring one like Cucumbor’s for $700 today. Double that is a closer price one would have to pay.

I think on a good day and at the right venue, examples like Orfew’s and Severus Alexander’s can very easily fetch more than what they paid.

Also worth mentioning for those who can appreciate the difference (not me!) - the most expensive of these will have you paying $3000-$4000:
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=324763
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=324762
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=175692

Now, if my time machine were working, the one I’d buy would be Doug’s forty buck beauty. Yeah, I’d make a terrible coin investor .

 

I don't care about the prices but the list of elephants listed on SA's link is wonderful. I am amazed by how many of the coins are plated or significantly defective. Finding one of the quality many people would consider acceptable will obviously take a while. This is what happens when a coin is so popular that there is a market for even these. Where is the coin that can be graded EF or (MS 5/5 5/5 for slabs) without applying a 'for these'?

Did you notice several were posted with the implements side upside down? I know there is a difference in opinion as to which side should be considered the obverse but was surprised to see so many sellers posting the elephant as the reverse.

Looking at them all, I even found one I really wish I could have seen and bid upon and the seller did not even describe what I found appealing.
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3011405

 

$40 would be about $80 today, but the coin is going to be worth alot more than that.

 

Thanks,

But I would of course not let it go at that price (I like it so much that I would have to be offered way over market value to even think of maybe consider selling it....)

Q

 

I tend to agree.

 

For funsies, here is a fouree which I purchased for $95 in 2014. I was not just getting back into Coin Collecting and clearly forgot about ancient forgeries. I saw a cheap example and wanted to use it in my class:

Roman Imperitorial
Julius Caesar, (49-48 B.C. Original)
Traveling Mint in Gaul, Fouree Denarius, 18.32mm x 3 grams
Obv.: CAESAR in exergue, elephant right, trampling on serpent
Rev.: Simpulum, sprinkler, axe and priest's hat

 

I do not blame you in the least. It is an exceptional piece.

 

Q's coin is a great example of the need for a grade/description followed by 'for these'. His coin is a little off center as all coins go but exceptional 'for these'. It is pretty well struck for all coins but bold 'for these'. It has some little edge splits that would scare away buyers of some coins but it is exceptionally fault free 'for these'. What would it cost to find a better one? A lot!

 

Love the posts and thread!!!!

My modest example, worn and flawed, is one of the cheapest posted LOL. I nearly passed on it, despite the 'relatively' cheap price, since it's missing any of the 'CAESAR' legend....but went for it since I just about had $170.00 left in my monthly budget.

 

$870 (900 CH +commission), Aretusa 4, March 1996, lot 387.