Yet another FTR (horseman) thread

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by maridvnvm, Oct 6, 2017.

  1. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    I've been busy with work for a few weeks and not been around much. I am just catching up on processing my purchases from last month and thought it time to inflict some more of my FTR fixation on you all.

    I am not done yet going through them so here is part 1.....

    Alexandria - and here I have an admission to make. I don't even remember bidding for this coin even though I evidently did because I won the auction! I already have two other coins from the same issue and same officina.

    Constantius II - AE2

    Obv:- D N CONSTANTIVS P F AVG, pearl diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right
    FEL TEMP REPARATIO, soldier spearing fallen horseman left
    Minted in Alexandria (G | // ALED). 15th March A.D. 351 - 6th November A.D. 355
    RIC VIII Alexandria 72. Cohen 46, LRBC 2836.

    22.57 mm. 7.07 gms. 0 degrees.

    [​IMG]

    I remember browsing and seeing the coin because I though that the alignment of the obverse legend was unusual. We believe that the engravers typically used a lightly etched circle on the die to guide the engraving of the legend. It would appear that this cutter didn't and as such the ONS of the obverse legend are oddly placed. He also seems to have not planned ahead for the end of the reverse legend meaning that the ATIO are squeezed in. Perhaps I am just trying to justify the purchase to myself...

    Antioch. I appear to be chasing a set of the officina for this issue. I have a LONG way to go but here are two gaps filled.

    Constantius II - AE2


    Obv:– D N CONSTANTIVS P F AVG, Pearl diademed, draped, cuirassed, bust right
    Rev:– FEL TEMP REPARATIO, Helmeted soldier to left, shield on left arm, spearing falling horseman; shield on ground at right. Horseman is bearded and falls forward reaching towards emperor
    Minted in Antioch (Gamma | _ //ANI). A.D. 350-355
    Reference:- RIC VIII, Antioch 132.

    6.01 gms. 21.94 mm. 0 degrees

    The obverse if slightly off-centre which detracts quite a bit from the coin overall. The hard green crusties are not an issue for me. The reverse is nicely centred and will executed. There is an odd artefact on the reverse. There is an arc running from below the A in PAR, through the emperor, through the shield on the floor. I really need to look at this under magnification to determine what caused it.

    Am I the only one who looks at the reverse of this coin and immediately thinks "Emperor vs Predator"?

    [​IMG]

    Constantius II - AE2


    Obv:– D N CONSTANTIVS P F AVG, Pearl diademed, draped, cuirassed, bust right
    Rev:– FEL TEMP REPARATIO, Helmeted soldier to left, shield on left arm, spearing falling horseman; shield on ground at right. Horseman is bearded and falls forward reaching towards emperor (type FH3)
    Minted in Antioch (Gamma | _ //ANH). A.D. 350-355
    Reference:- RIC VIII, Antioch 132.

    5.59 gms. 22.30 mm. 180 degrees

    A slightly ragged flan and slightly uneven strike leads to the top of the emperor and part of the reverse legend being lost. The horse and horseman however are utterly intact. The horseman is my interest in this one. If you are familiar with the series you will see that the horseman reaches back plaintively, almost straight armed, towards the emperor with his palm out as the emperor drives his spear downwards. Here however the arm is bent at about 90 degrees and the palm is facing the horseman. This is an unusual depiction and made this coin doubly interesting to me. The other facet being the officina gap fill.

    [​IMG]

    Siscia

    Constantius Gallus - AE2


    Obv:– DN CONSTANTIVS IVN NOB C, Bare, bust draped and cuirassed right; A behind bust
    Rev:– FEL TEMP RE-PARATIO, Soldier spearing fallen horseman, who is bare headed, reaching back towards the emperor
    Minted in Siscia (II | _ // dot ASIS dot)
    Reference:- RIC VIII Siscia 345 (C)

    4.46 gms. 21.54 mm. 180 degrees

    This one isn't noteworthy. It's just that I didn't have one of the larger sized Gallus examples.

    [​IMG]
     
    dlhill132, VDB, Ajax and 13 others like this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. Spaniard

    Spaniard Well-Known Member

    Lovely coins Martin and great write-up thanks for sharing.
    I do like that predator reverse!
    Paul
     
    Mikey Zee likes this.
  4. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    Cyzicus - again, nothing special, just an officina gap filler for this issue. There is some silvering and decent detail in areas of the reverse though the surface fractures distract quite a bit.

    Constantius II - AE2

    Obv:– D N CONSTANTIVS P F AVG, Pearl diademed, draped, cuirassed bust right
    Rev:– FEL TEMP RE-PARATIO, Helmeted soldier left, shield on left arm, spearing falling horseman; shield at ground to right. Horseman turns to face the soldier, and reaches his left arm up towards him. He wears a Phrygian helmet and is beardless
    Minted in Cyzicus (Gamma | _ // dot SMKB).
    Reference:- RIC VIII Cyzicus 96

    4.73 gms. 23.37 mm. 0 degrees

    [​IMG]

    Siscia again - This time a smaller sized, later issue. I didn't have one from this issue so...

    Constantius II - AE3

    Obv:– D N CONSTANTIVS P F AVG, Pearl diademed, draped & cuirassed bust right
    Rev:– FEL TEMP - REPARATIO, Helmeted soldier left, shield on left arm, spearing falling horseman; shield at ground to right. Horseman turns to face the soldier, and reaches his left arm up towards him. He is helmeted.
    Minted in Siscia (M | _ // BSISD).
    Reference:- RIC VIII Siscia 372 (C)

    2.16 gms. 16.37 mm. 0 degrees

    [​IMG]

    Lugdunum - two coins

    Julian II - AE3


    Obv:– IMP IVLIANVS NOB CAES, Bare headed draped and cuirassed bust right
    Rev:– FEL TEMP - REPARATIO, Soldier spears a horseman on left, one hand holding the neck of the horse & the other back at his attacker; he wears a Phrygian cap
    Minted in Lugdunum (// GSLG), 6th November A.D. 355 to Spring A.D. 360
    Reference(s) – RIC VIII Lugdunum 195 (R)

    2.18 gms. 18.35 mm. 0 degrees.

    This one is grotty but is an issue that I didn't have for Julian II and only cost me $1 with the shipping bundled as part of another purchase.

    [​IMG]

    Constantius Gallus - AE3

    Obv:– DN CONSTANTIVS NOB CAES, Bare, bust draped and cuirassed right
    Rev:– FEL TEMP - REPARATIO, Soldier spearing fallen horseman, who is bare headed, reaching back towards the emperor
    Minted in Lugsunum (//GSLG),
    Reference:– RIC VIII Lugdunum 192 (R2).

    1.85 gms. 17.74 mm. 0 degrees.

    [​IMG]

    Not a pretty coin but one I paid I bit of a premium for. I have been looking for one for a while and it proved much harder to find than I had imagined.

    I have GOT to find a Lugdunum - Constans that I can afford....
     
    dlhill132, Ajax, TheRed and 11 others like this.
  5. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

    Great addition Martin! I almost bid on the first one :D but I also already have 2. Its a nice and heavy one. The horseman on the ANI just needs a shoulder cannon. A sweet coin. A few FH popped recently with bent elbow like that, all ANH. Probably wont seen any more for a while.
    IMG_2920.JPG

    Hopefully you'll find your Lyons Constans, cheap ones have popped up.
    IMG_2339.JPG

    Congrats on all the great coins!
     
    dlhill132, Ajax, chrsmat71 and 10 others like this.
  6. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    I am amazed at the detail on the reverse of the second and third coins you posted @maridvnvm. It almost makes me want to search out some of these for my own collection. Almost!
     
    randygeki and Mikey Zee like this.
  7. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    The detail can be very good. You can see that the emperor is wearing a sword because you can see the sheath. You can often make out the detail of the armour and the boots even down to details of the strapping on the horse.

    I wouldn't bother looking though Bing..... it leaves more for randygeki and me.... GRIN
     
    Ajax, randygeki, Curtisimo and 4 others like this.
  8. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Well-struck and attractive examples, Martin! Thanks for sharing.
     
  9. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    For the time being, you and @randygeki are safe. As you know, I'm concentrating on my MA legionary collection at the moment. But beware. I will be looking some time in the future. Grin
     
    randygeki likes this.
  10. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I love the way the horse reaches down in exergue as if pointing to the mintmark.
     
    randygeki likes this.
  11. Mikey Zee

    Mikey Zee Delenda Est Carthago

    I definitely LOVE that 'predator' example! I always find the reasons why any coin was purchased as interesting and compelling as the coin itself....and tempts me to do the same.
     
  12. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Great additions, Martin.
     
  13. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    Love that Emperor vs. Predator!

    Since we've got all our FTR experts out, I'll pop these two into the thread. They were both part of a group lot (16 bucks per coin). Judging by Helvetica's RIC lists, the first isn't anything to special (though nice), while I think the second is pretty rare. Am I right?

    First is this common RIC 92 from Cyzicus, 2nd officina:
    Screen Shot 2017-10-06 at 9.51.19 AM.png

    And the special(?) one is an 11th officina from Constantinople, with: R-EPARATIO, reaching, beardless, helmet? and braids, gamma (dot? but the dot just seems to be part of the spear...). Helvetica says she has one, with the image on the Constantinople mint page, but I can't find it.
    Screen Shot 2017-10-06 at 9.52.44 AM.png

    Please enlighten me oh knowledgeable ones!
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
    dlhill132, Ajax, chrsmat71 and 5 others like this.
  14. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    I really like how you can see the scabbard of the sword on the second and third examples. Fantastic amount of detail there. Plus, those guys are nice and heavy. Blows away my 2 gram AE3/AE4 examples.
     
  15. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    RIC does not separate the coins by reverse legend split nor by styles on the horsemen. Much of that has been discussed in the years since RIC was published. RIC mentioned a few of the details but really did not attempt a study of them. If you are going to flyspeck one point and call a coin special for that reason, how are you to decide which specks are significant and which are not? I do not care about letter spacing nearly as much as I do about fancy boots but I fear separating either or both will require us to raise Ms. Dane's 2200 variety estimate to some much higher type count and we have enough now. Should we start a die study in recognition that every die is a bit different? I wonder how many reverse dies were used for FH coins? 10,000? 100,000?
    rx6725bb3047.jpg
     
    dlhill132, Ajax, chrsmat71 and 4 others like this.
  16. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    Ooops! (Fixed, thanks.)

    I certainly think it makes more sense for me to be jealous of your fancy boots than for you to be jealous of my R-EP! :) (I do like those fancy boots.) But I regard @randygeki and @maridvnvm as the true arbiters of taste in this area. :pompous: Maybe they will like my R-EP. ;)
     
  17. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    Both are very pretty coins indeed. I would have paid much more for them.

    I don't often disgree with Doug but in this case I will. RIC does differentiate between these legend breaks in the introduction to the section on page 453 where it is noted that the usual reverse legend break is RE-P and rarely R-EP.

    Both my CONSIA are from later issues.

    Here is a CONSA* - clutching type with the same legend break as yours.

    [​IMG]
     
    dlhill132, Ajax, chrsmat71 and 4 others like this.
  18. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

    I had almost had gotten the one Doug posted. I haven't seen another yet like his.


    @Severus Alexander

    Both are nice. The style on the Cyzikus is not as typical as most from the mint. A neat coin.
    IMG_2629.JPG




    I think the DOT is part of the spear as you said(or a left over mark of where to put the spear)

    I'd say:
    no beard, Phrygian helmet, two braids, reaching (not in RIC wearing helmet)
    Constantinople 82 variant

    The R-EP legeng breaks are definitely a bit harder to find. They note the legend break in RIC but still lumped them together. Here are my RIC82s

    IMG_2483.JPG
    IMG_3137.JPG


    :O:wideyed:
     
    dlhill132, Ajax, chrsmat71 and 5 others like this.
  19. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately for you all... I had not quite finished inflicting my latest of these on you. I have finally processed them.... All smaller, later issues....

    Antioch - nothing special. Just two missing officina for me from

    170 - Constantius II - AE3

    Obv:– D N CONSTANTIVS P F AVG, Pearl diademed, draped & cuirassed bust right
    Rev:– FEL TEMP REPARATIO, Helmeted soldier to left, shield on left arm, spearing falling horseman; shield on ground at right. Horseman is bare headed and bearded and reaches towards emperor
    Minted in Antioch (//ANH). 6th November 355 AD. - 3rd November 361 AD.
    Reference:- RIC VIII Antioch 187A (C3)

    2.78 gms. 17.63 mm. 180 degrees

    [​IMG]

    as above but:-
    Minted in Antioch (//AN Theta). 6th November 355 AD. - 3rd November 361 AD.

    2.40 gms. 17.45 mm. 0 degrees

    [​IMG]

    Cyzicus

    Constantius II - AE3

    Obv:– D N CONSTANTIVS P F AVG, Pearl diademed, draped & cuirassed bust right
    Rev:– FEL TEMP - REPARATIO, Helmeted soldier left, shield on left arm, spearing falling horseman; shield at ground to right. Horseman turns to face the soldier, and reaches his left arm up towards him. He is helmeted.
    Minted in Cyzicus (dot M dot | _ // SMKS).
    Reference:- RIC VIII Cyzicus 115 (C)

    3.09 gms. 17.72 mm. 180 degrees

    [​IMG]

    And finally - Thessalonica - This one seems to be an unlisted officina from a scarcer issue.

    Constantius II - AE3

    Obv:– D N CONSTANTIVS P F AVG, Pearl diademed, draped & cuirassed bust right
    Rev:– FEL TEMP RE-PARATIO, Helmeted soldier spearing fallen horseman who is wearing a Phrygian helmet, slumped forwards on ground on hands and knees.
    Minted in Thessalonica (// TSG star). 348-350 AD.
    Reference:- RIC VIII Thessalonica 114 var (unlisted officina, 114 is scarce)

    2.05 gms. 19.12 mm. 180 degrees

    [​IMG]
     
  20. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

  21. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Odd, I disagree with that old fool all the time. In this case, on page 454, the note to RIC 81 and 82 specifies that these numbers sometimes show the R-E break but you will note that they do not assign a different number to these differences so I don't consider that differentiating between them. That would have required a number like 82a and record which officinae had been observed with the different split. I am all for separations in catalogs that recognize a difference that was done for some reason but not one that was a matter of running out of space on a die and sliding one letter to the other side. RIC is famous for inconsistency when it comes to recording little differences in some cases but not others and usually fails to explain why they felt one variation was significant and another was not. If, for example, we were to find that the legend shift was made when Constans died, the variation would merit a new number. If all coins of a certain officina were one way, we should separate them but here we have shown an IA each way. There are a million details to be studied on these coins and I most certainly agree that Randy should be the one to do all this study. He is a lot closer to the age that will have a ghost of a chance of making a difference. If I were in charge of assigning responsibility, I'd prefer Martin get busy straightening out the mess we call Eastern Septimius. A serious problem we have in the hobby is that the number of interesting topics that need to be explored is greater than the serious students willing to put the work into it. Most I know have more than one interest and may not reach the end of all those studies. In 1997, I started my web pages with two: one was Eastern Septimius and the other was a Falling Horseman. In a few years I had learned a lot about several other topics but pretty much nothing new about Septimius. We need specialists dedicated to figuring out things that were not known in the 20th century and before.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page