I've never heard of it: International Coin Certification Service. I came across it in this auction: http://www.ebay.com/itm/West-German...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 This is the only silver coin from West Germany I am missing. In the grade claimed its CV is $1700. If it were NGC or PCGS at this price I would bid. But I don't plan to bid on this. I am just curious.
They are generally reputable for Canadian and British/commonwealth coins. Quite a few of the high end Chinese fakes of Canadian coins, which were all over ebay in recent years, made it into their flips though. Also there had been some really embarrassing mistakes on their behalf, such as authenticating and grading a 1914 Canadian dime with portrait of Edward VII (1902-1910). This coin was an obvious fantasy/fake and would be recognized as such even by rookie collectors.
A few of the reports that I have heard is that they grade conservatively and that people have had Canadian coins in those holders upgrade by 1 point at PCGS/NGC. This is just anecdotal evidence and does not mean your results would be similar. In the ebay listing for the German coin, the seller takes returns. So if you think the coin looks real and is properly graded, it might be worth the risk to bid on it. And if you sent it to PCGS/NGC and the coin came back counterfeit, you should be covered (paypal protection is 180 days).
The German coin looks legit, but I would treat any non British commonwealth coins in ICCS flips as raw. They do not generally sell for a premium as NGC/PCGS slabs do anyway. And yes, they grade by a stricter standard. This is also why Canadian, Aussie and other such coins graded by NGC and PCGS often sell below the value for the assigned grade, because of the more lax standards for grading these coins. By the way, that coin is really worth $250-$300 tops, not even close to CV in that or really any grade.
Really? Why do you say that. As I said, it is the only W. German silver coin I do not have. I have been looking out for it for a long time but have never seen one offered at $300 in a decent condition.
They used to sell higher 10 years ago, but still far below CV. Check out Heritage, they usually have one or two a year, graded. You can probably pick up a decent MS example for the asking price in that ebay listing.
Australia strongly prefers PCGS coins and has fully embraced grading by both services, their market is just following their economy at the moment. Not a lot of coin money going paycheck to paycheck
Makes sense as well. Grading-wise there doesn't seem to be an issue with MS coins, but with circulated grades, particularly where the big price jump happens from VF to XF, it seems to me that the grading is less strict than Aussie standards (going by sale prices, even compared to raw coins sold by Australian dealers).
You'd see the same with raw coins unless a buyer is just optimistic with their grading right now. I was browsing some more recent Aussie auctions the other day, pretty much everything that wasn't top of the line was down from a year or two ago. Even some of the better stuff was coming in under estimates, didn't bother to check if the estimates were optimistic or not but in the past a lot of their stuff would reach estimates and a decent amount would exceed them. The other thing too which we experienced when grading took off is that some of it may be that they're finding out some things aren't as rare as they were made out to be.
I completely agree with you on the economic and higher supply factors here. Regarding prices due to over-grading, here is an example of what I'm talking about: https://coins.ha.com/itm/australia/...62139.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515# I think it's a consensus among Aussie collectors that a Geo V coin with less than 8 fully defined pearls (due to wear, not weak strike) is not XF and that one with 6 pearls is a clear VF. This is what I was trying to say, that based on prices these coins are not selling for the value range of the assigned grade, because the people buying them use stricter standards than the TPGs grading them.
that Germany coin in VF20- $1,750 in my 2016 coin catalog. with a mintage - 60,000. I collect some of these 5 marks. a few common dates and a few proofs. I have heard from my world coin dealers in Vegas say that ICCS is tougher on grading than PCGS. that what they said and they have been dealers for 35+ years. buy the coin not the holder. It would be hard paying that amount not knowing for sure what the grade is/was. I am confident in the Canadian coins they grade, but not sure on any other world coins they grade ICCS. ? are you doing the whole date run, letters run ?
I definitely agree that there will always be self assessment from buyers regardless of who graded it or what standard they used, I just think there's a lot of substantial factors in play at the moment that really cloud the issue and make it almost impossible to draw any firm conclusions about it at the moment. I fully expect Aussie coins to go soft right now at the US auction houses. I actually like a lot of Aussie coins and collect some of them myself, but aside from the rarities/high end grades or coins that are are just hard to find for whatever reason there's so much substantial cost built into an Aussie bidder using those auction venues that bids really have to be backed off to compensate. Between the shipping and handling fees they charge and the currency conversion right now the main market for those is almost eliminated off the bat. It's hard to justify the fees without ordering several items. The other thing too is that with some of the auction houses and their rising fees, on more common stuff I do believe we are also seeing bidders just adjust their bidding levels to more closely reflect the true total costs. We see what it ended for, but the winner has to pay more at checkout
I expect to find potential bargains in ICCS holders, if I look carefully for the things I know they're conservative on. That is why many of the Canadian Large Cents I'm currently collecting originated in ICCS flips.
