Have you ever bought a coin just because of provenance?

Stranger things have happened... John Tyler (4 presidents after JQA) still has two living grandchildren.

And I would consider buying a coin solely for the pedigree, assuming the coin looked decent and wasn't astronomically priced.

 

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If you mean ONLY so I could have the pedigree, no. But I have bought several coins where the pedigree was a very important factor in selecting that particular example.

 

I once got rid of a coin because of its provenence. I got it in a trade, and I discovered that it had been owned previously by a guy who was a complete jerk. I sold it immediately, because I didn't want it contaminating my collection.

 

I bought an NGC bust half with Al Overton pedigree once. It had artificial toning, but was in a straight holder. 1811 Large 8 variety... I think AU53. I regret selling it, even for the small profit I made, as I have not seen another one since.

 

Actually "provenance" covers more than previous prior private owners. All GSA Morgans have a provenance and are widely collected specifically for that.

In ancient numismatics, origin in a known hoard is also provenance. Same is true in US collecting (i.e. SS Central America, Saddle Ridge, etc.) When I collected ancient Greek coins, I never bought a coin I didn't like because of provenance. However, provenance did influence me to buy a couple that I did like. One was from a known hoard. Another was a "that coin" pictured in a well known reference book.

I like to think that I've never bought a US coin because of provenance. But because I did know the provenance of a couple prior to purchase, it's hard to say.

Cal

 

Several years ago David Cervin's collection of Early Dated
coins came to auction. I bought 9 from his collection. I have
upgraded most of them but I kept his coins just for the
provenance. There is a collector that I met at the Atlanta
winter ANA and she collects just these types of coins.

 

Yes...

I bought one coin from the 1st EPN sale (IIRC it was the 6th least expensive coin in the auction), but it fit into my set.

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/2037622-017/40/

There was a 2nd coin I had my eye on but was outbid. It was a VF35 not XF40, so it didn't strictly fit into my set, but I was interested just because I loved the look and anything that met EPNs standards has to be good enough for me!

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/2037622-024/35/

When it showed up on eBay a couple weeks later, BIN at less than the EPN auction price, I grabbed it.

 

Steve Tannenbaum was a famous token collector who was murdered by a hit and run driver in New York City. His rarities are slabbed as his. I had the opportunity to purchase twenty of the Menter tokens from his collection and bought them. Another ten went for slightly higher than I bid for them. This is a small set and I didn't know that anyone had made a complete set. I wanted the ones from my state the most so bid high for them. I also purchased the entire transportation token collection of noted Indiana collector William Bridge so that I could strip out the Indiana tokens and sell / trade the other states. Because he is so well known I replaced my tokens with his and only added what he was missing to my collection in my own holders. I bought the library of noted indiana token collector/dealer George Conder to use as research for my own token catalog. Later this year I will sell all of the state catalogs in one lot and keep only the first edition Indiana by Wagaman. It is in bad shape but it has been marked to show every token in the Conder collection. So the answer is yes. I gather pedigree coins and tokens if I find them. If they are from a famous enough person I put the coin and holder together in a 3 x 3 flip to preserve them.

 

No, I haven't.

Yes, I would.

 

I bought this set for two reasons, 1) I collect Kennedy Halves, and 2) I thought it was cool to have a piece of the Binion Hoard.

 

I was looking for some colonials just to have, and came across one that was graded by (not owned by) Walter Breen, and included a grading card with his signature. Say what you want about the man's personal life, but he was/is huge in the world of numismatics. The coin was what I was after, but it also is a neat piece of numismatic provenance. I paid a little more (not a lot) then I originally intended, but I'm glad I have it, it's unique.

 

Naw. Would be foolish. Would it increases in value once you own it. Food for thought

 

Is it actually a regular 1865? My understanding was that that was the one coin missing from his collection. He had included a proof 1865 rather than a business strike and it turned out the coin was a pattern and not a "regular issue".

 

It's a standard proof 1865. Most of his Philadelphia coins were proofs because that's the way that Clapp had collected them. The last coin that he needed was an 1873-CC no arrows dime IIRC.

 

There is a difference between the terms "provenance" and "pedigree". The term provenance has been abused by the numismatic community for many years.

The following was taken from an entry I posted at my blog at the American Numismatic Association website.

Provenance
Provenance is normally used to show the legal title chain (chain of ownership/possession). This legal title chain is in the form of a partial title chain linkage or a full title chain linkage. Here are the definitions.

Partial Title Chain Linkage
a. Start anywhere in the legal title chain
b. Be as short as a single person-to-person transfer of ownership/possession
c. Never be as long as the full title chain linkage

Full Title Chain Linkage
a. Linkage start from the manufacturer
b. Include each and every person-to-person transfer of ownership/possession
c. Linkage ends with the the current ownership/possession

Pedigree
Pedigree is normally used to tie a numismatic object to:
a. An important collection (collector(s))
b. An important hoard (hoarder or hoard location)
c. An issuance (date or period of time)
d. An issuance event (date, time, and location)
e. A book's plate "coin"

Is provenance with Full Title Chain Linkage impossible to prove? Yes, for many issues.

Can it be achieved? Yes !

 

According to Merriam-Webster and Oxford dictionaries, "provenance" can simply mean origin or source, which leaves a lot of latitude. Don't know who has the final say in refining it for numismatics ... maybe ANA or ANS or British Museum ... maybe me ... maybe no one ... maybe anyone.

The provenance of "provenance" is that it was adapted in the late 18th century from the French "provenir" (to come from) or the Latin " provenire" (same meaning). A lot of coins are older than the English word, "provenance".

Some coins also have provenience too.

Cal

 

The above video shows an example of "provenance" for a U.S. Mint medal based on my on-going numismatic research.

The provenance:

Bureau of the Mint (origin) -> President Dwight D. Eisenhower (historical figure) -> recipients (awardees).

The Bureau of the Mint-to-U.S. President "ownership link" is unheard in U.S. numismatics, even more so with documentation.

I have several medals of this newly discovered POTUS sGm series that are "three degrees of separation" from President Eisenhower or President Kennedy. This can only be accomplished by knowing the original awardee heir(s) (most original awardees have past).

If you are not familiar with the term "degrees of separation": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation

Here is my Sept 7, 2017 ANA blog of a "three degrees of separation from President Kennedy" https://www.money.org/collector/drd...degrees-of-separation-from-president-kennedy-

In this ANA blog example, the "ownership chain" was never broken proving true "provenance" between each owner and back to the U.S. Mint.

This is a new type of U.S. collecting that can only be accomplished with the POTUS sGm series.

Other videos of the POTUS sGm series can be see at http://potus-sgm.com/

 

Another video.... I call this the legacy donation with provenance. This is a unique NGC release ceremony gold and silver coins. The provenance "ownership link" is fixed and will never change.

U.S. Mint (origin) - > DrDarryl (original purchaser) -> Fort McHenry National Monument and National Shrine (donation recipient).

Original purchaser/family is to be remembered "for all prosperity" as it will permanently reside at the museum at Fort McHenry.

 

For US-based collectors of some types of ancients, provenance is extremely important. The unelected members of the Cultural Property Advisory Committe(CPAC), part of the Department of State, have passed a Memorandum of Understanding(MOU) with Italy which restricts the import into the US of certain early Italian and Roman types. The gist of the regulation is that there must be sufficient evidence(i.e. provenance) that the coin was out of the ground prior to the date of the passing of the MOU in 2011 or the coins are subject to seizure by customs. Even when buying from dealers and auction houses in the US and not subject to import restrictions I try to stick with provenanced examples as well, just to keep my collection completely above board. This coin is one such coin that I specifically purchased because I was able to verify that the previous collector had it in 2010(via a photo on his Flickr page) and thus it was not subject to seizure under these restrictions:


Roman Republic Æ litra(5.75g, 18mm), anonymous, after 264 B.C., Cosa mint. Helmeted head of minerva right; border of dots / Horse's head right, on base; behind, ROMA[NO] upwards. Crawford 17/1d; BMCRR Romano-Campanian 12; Sydenham 3a
Ex Thersites collection(ROMA e-sale 32, 1/7/2017, lot 662), ex Andrew McCabe Collection, acquired 2010

Did I pay extra because of the provenance? Perhaps, but not too terribly much more than I might have otherwise paid for this scarcer variety. In my opinion it's just a cost of collecting these types.