Panic! Is my other Caracalla Sestertius also a cast?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Julius Germanicus, Sep 14, 2017.

?

What is this and what shall I do with it? (more than one choice possible)

  1. A cast fake

    26 vote(s)
    76.5%
  2. A worn but genuine Sestertius with some edge treatment

    1 vote(s)
    2.9%
  3. Send it back to seller right away

    16 vote(s)
    47.1%
  4. Spend 50 Dollars to have it inspected by expert as it is a rare coin

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Not worth further investigation but too nice to return for 100 USD

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Julius Germanicus

    Julius Germanicus Well-Known Member

    After I returned one of my Caracalla Sestertii to the seller (see other thread), I just took a closer look at the pictures of the other one I took yesterday to compare the two.

    The obverse looks great to me (why would someone re-cast this kind of worn and slightly off-center portrait?)

    P2100001.jpg

    Same with this very worn reverse...
    But what about that deep pit on the right? Doesn´t it give some sort of "Fourée"-impression?

    P2090997.jpg

    And what is that on the edge? Traces of filing and doesn´t that look like a CASTING SEAM ???

    P2090995.jpg

    Devastated, JG
     
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  3. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    It seems to have all the telltale marks of a cast. The apparent seam seems to me to be the crowning piece of evidence.
     
  4. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I'll not say that it makes no difference whether it is good or not but if YOU are not comfortable and if the seller will accept the return, send it back. Can you enjoy the coin? Can you sell it to a friend as genuine? There are thousands of coins that you can feel good about owning. This is not one. If I had to make a ruling, I would say it is bad but I am not in the business of judging. If your curiosity is more important than the coin, you can send it off for a $50 opinion but I'd add that money to the refund and buy a coin I could enjoy rather than worry about.
     
  5. Deacon Ray

    Deacon Ray Artist & Historian Supporter

    I'm not an expert, @Julius Germanicus but those deep pits on the reverse side would concern me. Are they the result of air pockets from the casting process?
     
  6. Mikey Zee

    Mikey Zee Delenda Est Carthago

    Ever since I returned to this hobby, I've embraced the simple 'maxim' that if there's any doubt, there's no doubt....

    There are so many examples I can feel comfortable with that I rarely entertain the thought of taking a chance on any that cause me concern. And the edges combined with the excessive pitting cause me concern.
     
  7. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    To this I would just add that you may want to consider not buying any more coins from this particular seller.
     
  8. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    I very new to ancients but the split on the edge and the pitting on the surfaces screams one word out to me-FAKE. Try and return to the seller for a full refund.
     
    Julius Germanicus likes this.
  9. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Darn, that's bad. At this point that seller is trying to deliberately peddle fakes. No way anyone with experience has a coin like this one get by when it's so obvious.
     
    GerardV and Julius Germanicus like this.
  10. Multatuli

    Multatuli Homo numismaticus

    I don't like this coin. besides the pits on the reverse, this edge clearly indicates to me a line of fusion provoked by a process of casting. That is, if possible, take your money back. I'm really sorry...
     
    Julius Germanicus and Stevearino like this.
  11. Theodosius

    Theodosius Fine Style Seeker

    And who is the seller so we can be very cautious about their items?
     
    Julius Germanicus and Stevearino like this.
  12. Julius Germanicus

    Julius Germanicus Well-Known Member

    Thank you all for the unambiguous vote.

    I just told the seller and he agreed to take it back and refund.

    He apologized and wrote that this had been the first fake that came upon him in 20 years of trading ancient coins.

    Um, I have only been collecting coins for two years and out of the 70 or so Roman Bronze coins I have owned 7 have turned out to probably be cast fakes (despite 4 of them having been in major auctions).
    That is a depressing one out of ten. At least I could return all of them.

    On the other hand, the best 15 of my remaining Bronzes have been certified genuine by Sear or NGC now, so they should be safe :)
     
  13. Pishpash

    Pishpash Well-Known Member

    NGC don't certify ancients. It is in the small print.
     
  14. Theodosius

    Theodosius Fine Style Seeker

    David Sear does not guarantee anything either if you read the bottom of his certificates. You are getting his opinion (one of the world's best I think).

    Ancients are not as uniform as US coins and no one guarantees them except the dealer who sold them to you.
     
  15. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    You really do seem to have had an incredible run of bad luck, JG. I wonder if the unpatinated stuff is more likely to be cast?
     
  16. Julius Germanicus

    Julius Germanicus Well-Known Member

    Could be, but nevertheless I like the look of them :). This cannot be due only to my relative inexperience, as half of my returns have passed the controls of major auction houses without causing concern. The Sestertius format seems to be especially prone to (older) forgeries.
    I really hope that the other collectors of roman bronzes here like ro1974 have made sure that they do not have a similar portion of duds in their collection.
    Anyway, I decided not to give up and right after sending the two Caracalla Sestertii back I ordered a new one today (this time from a dealer I have good experiences with). I hope it will pass the audition :)

    I didn´t send anything to NGC myself yet, I just kept their tickets after breaking the plastic boxes the coins came in. Do you think it would improve credibility to have them certified by an independent authority also?

    I agree that there can be no guarantee in the world of Ancient coins, but is there a more respected independent authority than Sear?
    The problem are the coins in the lower price range that don´t justify the treatment economically. I think about sending in every bronze that cost me more than 200 USD that I intend to keep permanently (and that has´t been massacred here in the first place :) ).

    Yes. Maybe I should see the coins in hand before I order or auction them. They all looked good to me in the first place...
     
    Severus Alexander and Mikey Zee like this.
  17. AncientGalleonLLC

    AncientGalleonLLC New Member

    We are losing a lot of intellectual captial in our field. Many of the best experienced/trained dealers are retiring or are going to retire over the next several years. Many of us dealers have relied on these dealers for knowledge over the years. It takes years before one can really get a good understanding of fakes. Some are incredibly good and can fool us all as none of us were around 2000 years ago for comparison. The new dealers aren't going to have these people to learn from in the future. In my opinion, there will be a greater need for NGC ancients as time passes. They are currently the most accepted by collectors because of brand recognition already. It is just an opinion though and a valued one. Certificates of authenticity are only good if someone will accept them. Most are only worth the paper they are printed on. Sear is an expert and accepted by most of us but he will not be around forever. With the lack of experience many new dealers have, the lack of resources available to them (learning) and and with the amount fake ancients out there growing it just makes sense for more people to get coins reviewed and slabbed down the road. The problem is, is that it is not always economically viable.
     
  18. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Absolutely no guarantee from NGC that the coin is genuine.

    I do not want this thread to take a turn about slabbing vs non-slabbing, but when the time arrives that all I will be able to get are slabbed coins, I will quit the hobby. Not only is holding the coin part of my enjoyment, but slabbing will add additional costs I am not willing to absorb.
     
    Hispanicus, dlhill132 and GerardV like this.
  19. ro1974

    ro1974 Well-Known Member

    coin is real
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  20. ro1974

    ro1974 Well-Known Member

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG] nice coin thanks
     

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    Andres2, Bing and Mikey Zee like this.
  21. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    Alternatively, we as collectors can and should encourage new collectors not to patronize these inexperienced dealers and auction houses who consistently make mistakes. Far too many dealers and auction houses have the arrogance to believe that they can authenticate just about anything that a consignor puts in front of them and offer it for sale even if their expertise is with another area of collecting entirely and they all expect you to pay increasing buyer's fees and retail markups for this "service". You see it all over Vcoins and eBay more and more with dealers offering coins across the spectrum without the necessary experience to do so. There are still plenty of knowledgeable and worthwhile dealers out there, but it seems like you have to wade through an increasingly deep pool of incompetent ones to find them.

    I really don't think collecting, at least on the lower end that most of us are in, can survive the economic hit it would take for dealers and auction houses to pick up outside consultants' fees on top of their own markups and buyer's fees. I do however think we can make the market a better place for collectors by naming and shaming those whose incompetence and carelessness is a detriment to the hobby and who are not doing the work that their markups and fees should more than cover. Lanz with his eBay auctions full of toolies is one and Bertolami with their big-name auctions where seemingly every single bronze has been touched up to one degree or another are two of the most egregious but it's a much larger problem than that and we should not be afraid to name those guilty of this.
     
    Ajax, GerardV, Johnnie Black and 2 others like this.
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