My biggest and heaviest ancient coin

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Multatuli, Aug 18, 2017.

  1. Carthago

    Carthago Does this look infected to you?

    Sorry to be a downer @Multatuli, but I concur with Carausius that the style of the piece is questionable, especially the prow of the ship, which looks more like a fantasy piece than official. The patina looks good but patinas can be faked very convincingly. Forgeries of ancient coins were made 130 years ago too. I would seek out other experts to review it.

    Here's a link to some museum examples: http://numismatics.org/crro/id/rrc-36.1
     
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  3. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Hmm, that prow really looks nothing like the examples shown on CRRO, does it? o_O
     
  4. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio

    A US silver dollar is "only" 26.7 grams, or about 1/12 th of a Roman Pound = As = one uncia.
    Astragalus dot TV6.a Tintinna 5.20.17 .jpg Astragalus dot TV6.a Tintinna rev 5.20.17.jpg
    Cast Uncia = 1/12th of an As
    Obv - Astragalus
    Rev - dot
    TV-6a

    @spirityoda A Roman soldier was paid 3 Asses per day. That would have been 3 of the OP coin and would have taken a big purse to hold a week's pay. In 270 - 220 BC, Romans were mostly farmers and did not go to the grocery or hardware stores for goods they produced.
     
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  5. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio

    @Carthago and @TIF are right in the reverse looks different. It seems like the celator was trying to show heads in the above deck room.
    Attached are the plates from Haeberlin's Aes Grave. The first 3 are the good examples. The last plate shows a "false" copy on the top left that weighed 390 grams.
    Hab tafel 19.JPG Hab tafel 20.JPG Hab tafel 21.JPG Hab tafel 101 Falsche und Verfalschte Munzen.JPG
     
  6. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    Just sneaking in my Ptolemy III octobol here (93.3 g, 46mm, ex Dattari):

    Screen Shot 2017-08-20 at 10.33.52 AM.png
    I hope it all turns out well with the aes grave.... :nailbiting:
     
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  7. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio

    I looked in Haeberlin and did not see your coin in his plates. Not all of the specimens listed in the table of examples are shown on plates. I don't see one listed at a weight of 368.7, but there is one at 367.00 grams, or pretty darn close for a century + later. The table line:
    2. 367,00 Neapel, Cat I, 496, s gut (Borgia)
    I do not know what all of the notes say, but it looks like your example would be about the size of the 2nd largest known by Haeberlin out of 104 examples.
    Hab.JPG Hab 2.JPG
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
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  8. Multatuli

    Multatuli Homo numismaticus

    Thank you very much @Carausius, @TIF, @Carthago and @rrdenarius by your observations and opinions.
    This reverse with the different prow always paid my attention and brought me doubts about the real thing of the coin. Of course, there may be forgeries of more than 120 years. What strikes me are the real signs of aging and the pedigree, in addition to the other features already mentioned above. When I get a chance, I'll try to show it to some respected specialists in this kind of piece. If it is false, it will be a pity. Maybe it will turn into the most expensive paperweight I've got news of!
     
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  9. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    That was very kind of you. Thank you for the information about the weight. Very high, but not certainly too high.
     
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  10. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    Almost any quoted pedigree can be invented unless the catalog had a photo, and photos were not common in sales before about 1950. Any criminal can claim such-and-such a coin is from the old Lord such-and-such collection sale if it had a coin of the type because in the old days very few of the coins were illustrated. For example, the major firm M&M did not even illustrate their fixed-price catalogs at all until issue number 77 (1948). I have many Seaby catalogs from the 1970s that are only partially illustrated. They offered many excellent coins without photos.

    I, personally, think the OP coin is false (because of the odd prow). If that is so, it is not hard to imagine a seller inventing a false pedigree to go with a false coin.
     
  11. Multatuli

    Multatuli Homo numismaticus

    I agree with you @Valentinian. It's not difficult to create a false pedigree, specially on the thirties. But the last owner (the industry magnate) apparently acquired it directly from the sale of the collection of this german (or austro-hugarian) noble, at least 80-90 years ago. I really don't know if the Freiherr bought it from a forger or from someone who did know what it was.
    Anyway, the fact is that I will search more about this. But the fact that this reserve not appear in Haeberlin does not necessarily makes the coin a forgery. There is a semis type that the prow resembles that my coin. I can't remember the Thurlow-Vecchi number...
    Thank you!
     
  12. Carthago

    Carthago Does this look infected to you?

    Just looking more closerly at your post, RR, I didn't realize that Haeberlin had forgeries in his corpus. Fascinating. And that was originally published in 1910. Forgerers have always been among us.
     
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