1889 CC counterfeit

The counterfeit '55 double die above was made from a die pair that NGC recognized, Three different Dealers thought the coin was authentic;. It was that good that it fooled everyone including nme. They won't tell me the die charactoristics, but we saw the chip at 3:00 o'clock, the marks behind Lincoln's ear and the mark down his shoulder. They could be the marks or not. Counterfeiters tend to give a circulated look to the coin so they could be from roughing the coin up.

 

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Two wrongs don't make a right

 

You don't know the feeling of having a coin worth over $1,500 dollars and then finding out it is counterfeit. It is not something that is "fun" or something that you want to happen to you. Go ahead and keep buying coins from China or even from US Scammers, it only encourages them to make better and better fakes.

 

Hmmm, your 55 looks very good, but I am not a "penny" guy. The "O" in "GOD" looks genuine on yours...I took your photo and downloaded, rotated and enlarged it so it was easier to look at. But, I don't work for NGC. More info, watch this video if you can stand the background noise!

 

Thank you for the YouTube on counterfeit '55s. The one point that stuck out to me was when he said the "L" of Liberty would be up against the rim on a counterfeit, the "L" on my coin is up against the rim. So maybe that is a die indicator that NGC used.

 

Are they easy to detect because the edge leading down to the surface of the coin would show concentric horizontal circles instead of standard fine vertical lines? Do you have any images of this technique...mainly those that you'd consider deceptive?

 

Being a retired tool maker , anyone with a decent jig grinder and a couple years experience could do this job , that's the scary part . Best way to not be fooled , as others have said , is to know the die pairings of what you collect or buy slabbed especially for this kind of money .

 

Either buy high end coins in slabs or get a return policy that gives you enough time to get the coin certified.

 

Kirkuleez, posted: "Are they easy to detect because the edge leading down to the surface of the coin would show concentric horizontal circles instead of standard fine vertical lines? Do you have any images of this technique...mainly those that you'd consider deceptive?"

No, they are usually not as well made as this alteration. IMO 98% of the collectors/dealers and professional authenticators would not have caught this alteration if it were done to a less valuable coin but then, what's the point. Now, thanks to NGC, we'll all be on the lookout.

Most cup and saucer coins are made quickly with no intent to defraud. A Magician's coin is an example. They do alter Morgan's that way too. Very often the denticals don't line up exactly on some part of the coin. I'll dig up a photo in a day or two. Box dollars are done in this fashion also except they have a hinge.

@britannia40 You might learn something from this post also.

 

Usually the rotation is set, but with older coins you can have interrupted marriages that may have a different rotation when remarried, and sometimes the die set screws could come loose allowing the die to rotate. One extreme example of this is the S-276 1807 large cent that was repolished a couple of times and comes with three commonly seen rotations, but which can be found with pretty much any rotation orientation. An EAC member did a study of this coin and documented known rotations all the way around.

 

What were the circumstances when you acquired the 1955?
Read this from the Lincoln Cent Resource:
"Check for two faint
die scratches leading downward from
the left bar of the T in Cent to establish
authenticity" -The CherryPickers Guide
Fourth Edition Vol. 1 pg. 122. The
reverse is also slightly rotated
counterclockwise about 10 deg."

If they all had the 10 degree rotation, that would be an obvious marker if the coin is aligned correctly.

 

This is a question I have for the actual gentlemen posting here. Why would someone "tell the world" that he is unethical, has low morals, and is perhaps, one step above a common thief?

TheMont, posted: "Beings the tread talks about counterfeits, I got this back this week from NGC. The members of my Coin Club talked me into submitting both double dies for certification:
View attachment 665808 View attachment 665810 [/QUOTE]

In spite of the fact that you have started an interesting discussion (Beings the tread talks about counterfeits), you've hijacked another very interesting discussion. What is the chance that you could put everything you've posted into a new discussion "Counterfeit & Genuine 1955 Doubled Dies. I think lots of folks who will not see it here will be interested and perhaps we'll learn more new things about these coins.
BTW, that video is very basic and deals with two very high grade coins. Much of the issues in the video go-out-the-window when the coin becomes circulated.

Kirkuleez, posted: "Are they easy to detect because the edge leading down to the surface of the coin would show concentric horizontal circles instead of standard fine vertical lines? Do you have any images of this technique...mainly those that you'd consider deceptive?

I'll look for some images (surprised none posted yet) but as I said they are easy to spot as milling one side of the coin so it fits leaves a tell-tale seam, even on the best made examples. The modern alterations are better than those made in the past. There are no concentric circles on the surface as the lathe removes metal right up to the lip of the rim. Then the other machined half is placed into it. Coins without the denticals (Kennedy 50c) are the easiest ones to hide the alteration.

If you look up "Magician's coin," you'll see the two halves but not the seam. I'll post the seam image.

PS @justafarmer Since another coin type has been introduced into the thread I have no idea which you are writing about here: "I have a theory that all die pairings have a set established die rotation - which I believe might prove to be one of the more difficult characteristics for a counterfeiter to duplicate."

If it is a general theory for all coins? Then yes, many coins from the same die pair are rotated. Often it becomes a slow progression of increasing degrees.

Possibly @britannia40 and other members can add to this concerning all the foreign coins they have seen that are rotated.

@TheMont posted: Thank you for the YouTube on counterfeit '55s. The one point that stuck out to me was when he said the "L" of Liberty would be up against the rim on a counterfeit, the "L" on my coin is up against the rim. So maybe that is a die indicator that NGC used.

The easy-to-see diagnostic on the counterfeit in the video is the raised "hook" on the top of the five. This is an old counterfeit from the early 1980's.

 

Insider, I guess this is why you follow me, just so you can jump into any tread I post in and make a nasty remark. Nice job, and nice lengthy post covering several different, unrelated topics.

 

TheMont, posted: "Insider, I guess this is why you follow me, just so you can jump into any tread I post in and make a nasty remark. Nice job, and nice lengthy post covering several different, unrelated topics."

You "jump" a thread and I'm the bad guy.

I follow lots of members! Probably over twenty (I'm too lazy and too to check). So sorry I have you caused you to become paranoid. As I posted, you hijacked this thread. I would have posted this fact and my request to move it to anyone else here.

Sticking another coin that is completely different (type of coin AND TYPE OF FAKE - counterfeit vs alteration) only confuses things - at least to me. For example, I have no clue which coin or if any coin in this thread one member has commented on.

IMHO, everything posted so far by you and others is valid and interesting.
Therefore, I hope you quit and please start a new thread about the two coins you own with everything about the 1955 1c DDO you have posted here so far except your condemnation of me.

 

The title of this tread is "1899 Counterfeit". I waited while it was discussed and when I felt that there was a lull in the discussion I brought in my post concerning another counterfeit.

Your post had absolutely nothing to do with counterfeits. You gave a rather lengthy post commenting not on counterfeits or coins for that matter, but about the people and the posts they made.

Why don't you start a tread with a title something like, "The Thoughts of Insider?" On second thought don't bother, no one wants to read the negative posts you make.

 

TheMont, posted: "The title of this tread is "1899 Counterfeit". I waited while it was discussed and when I felt that there was a lull in the discussion I brought in my post concerning another counterfeit."

That's correct. 1899 Counterfeit, not your 1955/55 1c. If you were to read the thread again (before you hijacked it), there was much more to discuss like the IMAGES that were requested.

"Your post had absolutely nothing to do with counterfeits. You gave a rather lengthy post commenting not on counterfeits or coins for that matter, but about the people and the posts they made."

Well, part correct but only because I did discuss the 1899-CC coin which is a very deceptive, new ALTERATION and not some decades old counterfeit. If you were to read the thread again (this time after you hijacked it) you would see I discussed fake 1955 cents and the OP's coin.

"Why don't you start a tread with a title something like, "The Thoughts of Insider?"

That's what ALL my posted opinions are!

On second thought don't bother, no one wants to read the negative posts you make.

I suggest you do as some have done and "IGNORE ME."

Before you do, please take my suggestion and start the new thread.

 

Rotation then is a static characteristic of a die pair with some exceptions to the rule.

I called it a theory in my above post - but it really was more of a general thought concerning counterfeiting.

Guess you can say - I kinda jumped this thread also - so I'll leave the rotation subject at the moment and maybe bring it up it its own thread down the road.

 

@TheMont, posted: "Insider, I guess this is why you follow me, just so you can jump into any tread I post in and make a nasty remark. Nice job, and nice lengthy post covering several different, unrelated topics."

I should have looked! I guess I removed you from the members I follow several months ago. I just checked to see what my "friends" were posting and you were not there! Anyway, I'm going to continue to keep you off the list UNTIL you post a thread about 1955/55 cents.

Please "tag" me if you do as I may be able to add some interesting things I've read or heard in class.

 

Insider: Gee, that was an interesting post about 1899 counterfeits.

 

TheMont, posted: Insider: Gee, that was an interesting post about 1899 counterfeits.

Wow, guess you got me good. More importantly, did you understand how the alteration was done?