Adding a ‘STRIKE’ Grade to current MS grading system

Would adding a number of 1 -5 to the current MS grading system be beneficial to the grading system and for the hobby as a whole?

I bring this up because a couple of weeks ago I was at a coin show looking for a slabbed Morgan dollar.

I looked at several different Morgans, all PCGS MS64 dollars. On one the strike was so poor that if it had not been slabbed, I would have thought it was an AU50.

After looking at several, I bought what I thought was the best in that all the hairs along the forehead were sharp and extremely well defined.

It got me to thinking, should there be a grade for the strike itself?

Already the are things like FS for ‘Full Steps” on Jefferson nickels, FBL for “Full Bands Line” on Franklin Halfs and several others.

But what if when you were looking at slabbed coins with an MS60 or above, there was an additional S1 thru S5 that indicated a grade of just the strike of the coin. That might mean that an MS60 S5 would be valued more by collectors than an MS63 S3 of an MS65 S1.

I think many of us may be doing this in our own minds already just as I did with my recent Morgan purchase. And sometimes I will see a coin advestised as a very good or excellent strike example.

Any thoughts?

 

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Strike is already a criteria for grade. Why include it a second time?

 

I know they say it is, but I really have to wonder if it is, as was the case in my recent experence. And if that was really the case, why have the grading services added the FS, FBL, etc. to grading? If stike were being taken into consideration then why have the extra codes for these attributes? Why not just say that any Jefferson that was over MS65 (or some other high grade) MUST have Full Steps to acheive that grade. So clearly strike is not being fully considered with say an MS67 Jefferson without the FULL STEPS.

 

Those are superlatives. They speak specifically to Full Strike on a coin. They are the highest points on the design and even when a coin is very strongly struck, these highest points may not be complete.

Any coin that grades over MS-66 should have a spectacular strike. Any coin that grades MS65 should have a strong strike, and the rest top out at MS-63. That's how strike is already in the mix.

Does that help?

 

mikenoodle, posted: "...Any coin that grades MS65 should have a strong strike, and the rest top out at MS-63. That's how strike is already in the mix."

Awhile back, this was 100% true; however the "market" and the TPGS have become a little loose with the strike on '65's for many dates and mints.

I believe the member may have typed the number "63" in his post when "64" is a better answer.

 

This was, in a way, discussed before - https://www.cointalk.com/threads/peace-dollars-is-strike-an-element-of-grade.45572/ - regarding the typical weak strike on Peace Dollars where even weakly struck examples could still grade MS65 and above. Certainly, in some cases, a strongly struck MS60 might be far more desirable than a weakly struck MS65 and might warrant a number designation of the strike in addition to the MS number.

 

Pass

 

I'm going to a coin show this weekend and I'll test this one out. I'm going to be looking at Peace Dollars and I'm looking for one in at MS65 or MS66. (I'm putting together a 20th Century Type Set with all PCGS graded coins MS64 or higher - most of the more recent coins are MS67) My bet is I'll be able to find some poorly struck examples slabbed in the MS65 or higher range. But maybe not.

 

Someone just posted "The First MS68 S-Mint WLH" on the PCGS Boards. Based on what people are saying here, it should be absolutely hammered. But, it wasn't -- so strike isn't all that important or necessary for über-ultra-choice-gem grades from the TPGs. The picture of the coin is below:

Link to coin: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/84765670

 

If that's what you choose to believe then, be my guest.

A quick note about grading - coins are graded against other coins of the same date and mintmark. Some dates are poorly struck, and even the MS-65s won't be "hammered".

Just thought you'd like to know...

 

I just read a large part of the thread at - https://www.cointalk.com/threads/peace-dollars-is-strike-an-element-of-grade.45572/

It seems some people don't care that much about strike while others do. (Which I found very interesting in itself.) And many seem to think that a 'good strike for that year' should be considered in the value of the coin (Makes perfect sense to me). For instance, there are some years/mints that are notorious for bad strikes. So you can end up with an MS66 or MS67 from some years that are frankly not at all good examples of the type, yet are still give a high grade.

So I guess people will settle for a crappy MS66 from a year/mint when all that means is it is just the least crappy example for that year. While if that coin were from a different year/mint it wouldn't grade better than an MS63 or MS64. (Perhaps an extreme example - but it could happen.)

So what is so bad with a mintage that just doesn't have any grades higher than an MS64 because the vast majority were poorly struck? (In other words, don't give a coin a high grade just because all of its brothers and sisters were poorly stuck as well. That's like calling the kid in the class with an IQ of 50 a genius just because everyone else in the class has an IQ of 20 or under.)

So again it seems that with the current system, a separate grade for just the strike seems even more important. For then you could have an MS67 S1 that indicates that while the coin is of high grade, it is poorly struck. And in some cases perhaps there are no coins from the year/mint that are higher than an S1 because there were all poorly struck.

 

While that's a very lovely Walking Liberty, I think I have some AU55s in my collection that have better detail in her left half then this one.

 

A coin can be fully struck and still lack detail due to a die that is either missing detail due to wear, hubbing, or a hub that's missing detail.

 

Look at 1926-S Buffalo Nickels. Some Mint State coins lack a full horn.

You just have to know yur coins and which ones are known for good strike and which ones are known for poor strike.

The TPGs have made us all lazy. We expect the grade to evaluate the coin for us, when all it does it give us a measure to compare it to others.

 

I'm sort of old school with my grading and believe that a gem grade should be reserved for coins with very few marks and have nice strikes and luster. That said, you can't really limit a coin to a certain grade if it is clearly nicer than others of the same year and mint mark. I see it all the time when people ask if a certain dealer or auction house gets a top pop grade. Everyone jumps to the conclusion that they are somehow getting grades that they requested. I think that generally it is just the TPG recognizing that the coin is better than the others of the grade and give it a point bump to set the market for the grade. I'm not too much of a fan of this practice, but can understand why they would do it.

 

A strictly numeric based grading system would be ideal, but the cryptic use of old fashioned G VG F VF etc mixed with the grade by the numbers methodology just confounds us even more. The variety based acronyms make it even worse. I agree with mikenoodle The Village Idiot,
my 2 cents added that if an NGC or PCGS grade told the whole story, we wouldn't need photographs at all, would we?

 

I like the old fashioned grading. But I think all grading should be the same. If a particular year is very poor, then it should be graded as such. If there are no MS66's, then there aren't any. Some newer coins - 35 years old are terrible. I consider older coins to figure the grade. But evidently the graders do not. If it is a weak strike, it should be graded accordingly - MS whatever- weak.

 

PCGS" definition for 68: "Only the slightest weakness in strike with a few tiny imperfections barely visible."

If that WLH meets the above definition - even factoring die condition, and it appears to be a later die state - I'll eat it.

 

Rick Snow is pushing for a system of grading along these lines. It's on his website, and most coins he sells carry not only the traditional Sheldon grade but the new grade as well.