PCGS MS70 Silver Eagles - PCGS a NO-NO!

No it is not ethical---but not many things are today---and while I agree I also think that as I think I’ve heard you say before—this is a free county and anyone can price or pay for an item as much as they want too---even if it is nuts.

I’m not trying to justify SGS---what I’m trying to do is find out what makes a grading company?…SGS is a bunch of crooks and I wish they weren’t around…but wishing something doesn’t make it come about---I would love to educate more people about SGS and I think this Forum is doing a pretty darn good job at that….they are hurting the hobby---but no more than PCGS or NGC….lets think about the First Strikes---that is about as much hog wash as PF70 grade from SGS---and just as many people fell for it…but yet NGC and PCGS both are still grading companies….so where does the line get drawn??

this is what hasn’t been made plain….what makes a grading company and what doesn’t?….what must one do to start company that grades coins?…..what kind of rules and standers must one have? What makes a grading company “legitimate” and what makes one not “legitimate”……I think you will see what I mean---people think that as long as there is a grade on a hard case holder it’s a grading company---and that isn’t far off---but where is the line drawn?

This is what I don't get---PCGS and NGC are just as much crooks as the other fly by nights in many ways---I agree with Doug---the collectors need to band together and get a grading set to be stander---and we must use one---as long as we have PCGS's way and NGC's way and the ANA's way and SGS's way we are in one sad shape.

Speedy

 

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In my opinion, this is the ONLY way they could have any credibility at all.

 

Happy to hear you say that Speedy. Quite remarkably about 1 & 1/2 years ago when I became interested in coins again I started to research PCI. It was your favorable comments on this very forum that caused me to proceed in investing in PCI. Granted I have to send about 20% of the coins back ( actually I send a higher % of ICG coins back ) but the ones I keep I am thrilled with. When I trickle a few out for sale mostly I make a little money and the buyers always keep the coins. I suppose some day I will cut a fat hog on a few of them. What more can one ask for?
Best Wishes,

 

I think you are doing it right---some people just buy any coin as long as it is slabbed by the company they like and they don't even really look at it---I'm pretty picky and pass up many coins and sometimes will end up buying a coin from a lower end grading company that I like better than the ones from the TPG's---I grade the coins myself and if the grading company agrees with me then that is ok and if not that is ok!
My dealer has sent a good many coins to PCI and lately their grading is getting alot better than years ago...and I for one am taking another look.

Speedy

 

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Personaly I think to be a legitamate grading company you have to grade customer coins. From what I have read is, that if you do try to submit to sgs, they give you a song and dance about a huge backlog and your coin would take 6 or 8 months to get a grade. So naturally people don't want to wait that long. As I see it, sgs slabs thier own coins only... That makes them a marketer not a grader. If anyone has ever sent a coin to sgs for grading I would like to hear from them.

 

Get away with it !!! (overgrading)

 

I was about to chime in support for Speedy (who is asking the right questions IMHO), but this does bring an interesting point. I do not however, feel that it automatically eliminates SGS from being "a grading company" (because they only grade "their own" coins).

Bottom line is that although the top grading companies would like you to believe there's something magical about the service they provide, it's not that complicated. Presumably you have "coin experts" -people with years of training that can detect cleaning, counterfeits, and other damage. Their experience gives them the ability to assign number grades for "eye appeal" -and that number is pretty hard to dispute, because it is subjective. When you send your coins in, you really have no idea who (or how many people) looked at your coin, what their level of experience is (to my knowledge there's no PhD of coin grading), if it was looked at for 30 seconds or 30 minutes, nor any real idea why it did, or did not meet a certain grade.

So anyhow, through a complex system, your coin is assigned a final grade. Again, it's mighty subjective and it's just one opinion. How do we know this? Well, if we were to submit the same coin over and over to this grading company, it is possible the grade will change. Submitting it to another company might yield another grade. If one company assigns it MS68 and another MS69, is one of them wrong?

You might not like SGS. You might think their grading is complete rubbish. But are they *not* a grading company? Where is the "charter of grading companies" that outlines exactly what a grading company is? Where's the law? Where are the rules? Where does it say that PCGS can take your money, give their opinion and put the coin in a piece of plastic, but *I* can't do the same thing? Where does it say (plain as day on paper) that that company that assigned the MS69 is wrong, and that the grade of the coin *is* MS68?

Now, I don't like SGS more than most of you, but I think people romanticize what a grading company *is* just a tad too much.

 

That is a great point---and I've never head of anyone sending SGS any coins to grade---I might have to do a test...

Samjimmy
You have gotten the point that I'm trying to make---I just didn't write it as plain as you did---neither one of us like SGS---in fact I would say that neither one of us likes ACG but if we go back in time we find that ACG was once a trusted company---and to this day some still like them...where is the line---where is the law...and what does it say?

Speedy

 

Yep, I think many of us are on the same page. I personally don't find any grading company all that creditble for many of the reasons that have been discussed here. That said, I have bought slabbed coins for various reasons. I tend to like to buy slabbed ancients, as I at least like someone else to look at the coin and give their opinion on if it's authentic. My last slabbed was from NGC (a 2000-S PR69UC CLAD Viriginia Quarter for $7.50). I talk to many people across the country and figure I'll give it as a gift one day to someone who doesn't collect coins. Just a little thank you gift for something, etc.

I also have some a couple NNC and NTC graded red Indian and 2c coins, which may have been cleaned, but if I had bought them raw would have possibily been cleaned as well. Basically I try to buy the coin (as the old saying goes). I also bought an NCG graded Gold Buffalo $50 proof (69) because it cost me *less* than buying it from the mint. I'd never pay *more* than what the mint charges for a PF70 though.

 

Ouch....when I typed that I thought it looked funny and almost put NGC....thanks for pointing that out

Speedy

 

All that makes a grading company legitimate is their reputation, based on their expertise and performance.

As for MS/PF70, I liked it better in the old days when no coins (or VERY few) were graded 70. The reasoning was clear to me, that for the most part "perfection" did not exist. If you look at a coin and wee no defect, try a more powerful magifier. If you still don;t see a defect, try an even more powerful one. The point is, if you look close enough then you will find something, even if it takes a 100x lense. Then, if you have graded THAT coin 70, what do you call a coin which takes a 1000x lense to find fault with?

Things have gotten out of hand with the grading companies, and this is especially a problem considering how much is at stake between the higher grades.

 

I've read others posts like this (those that feel there is no such thing as "the perfect coin") -but this makes *no* sense to me. First, the definition of MS70 isn't "perfect under 1000x magnification." Second, I see no reason to have unobtainable grades (why not go all the way up to MS80 then, but only award grades up to MS69?). Third, I think it should be simple (and in theory is)... these are the things needed for a coin to get a certain grade and if the coin meets those requirements, it gets that grade.

Keep in mind that "luster" and "eye appeal" are part of the grade, and there's really no exact way to measure "eye appeal" so it's pretty subjective. I'm pretty certain that any coin graded MS69 is nearly interchangeable with any coin graded MS70 and vice versa. this is why I think it's insane to pay MS70 prices for coins that aren't a bit better than MS69 ones. But people do it...

 

In some respects, I wish there were more of them so that people wouldn't get suckered into paying 5x what the 69's go for thinking it's some rare and amazing thing. As technology and handling improves, I don't see why there couldn't (and shouldn't) be more and more. I understand there's some sick and twisted obsession with wanting to know which "the best" is (or are) and owning it, but I don't think expansion of the top grades (MS70.1, MS70.2 nor MS71, MS72) is needed. There's already enough, if not too many steps.

 

Another money grabbing scheme from PCGS.... They will be hoping for many crackout regrading attempts for the Reverse Proofs!

I seriously doubt they will offer free upgrading for undergraded coins.

 

What I can't understand is all the hubaloo about the new coins. There are thousands of them in equal grade. Just yesterday I bought a coin that has four equals from PCGS and none better and NGC has not graded any at that level. Price, $750.

 

Could this be the white spot's he's talking about?

 

To update this thread, I have some Silver Maple Leaf's graded by PCGS that have milk spots on them.