Could anyone help with some Arabic?

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by FitzNigel, Jun 12, 2017.

  1. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    So, I had someone lined up to help me with this - a student of mine. Unfortunately now that it is summer break I don't expect to hear back from this student for a few months, so I thought I would go to CoinTalk for help! I have the text and translation, but I am trying to reproduce the Arabic text to put into a word document. I think I'm close, but I certainly don't have it right. Anyway, here is a modern version of the Arabic text:
    al-Hasan b Sulayman.jpg

    Here is the coin it is found on, and my attributions (including my flawed attempt at reproducing the Arabic):
    Med-19b-Kil-1310-Hasan Sulayman-Fal-615.jpg
    East Africa - Kilwa Sultanate
    al-Ḥasan b. Sulaymān, r. 1310-1333
    Kisiwani mint, AE Fals, 19.01 mm x 1.7 grams
    Obv.: احسن بن / سليمان / عزذصز (al-Hasan ibn / Sulaiman / yathiku (May his victory be glorious!)). Inscription in three lines
    Rev.: يتق / بالواحل / النان (trusts / in the One (God) / the Bountiful). Inscription in three lines
    Ref.: SICA 10, #615, Freeman-Grenville 1954, pg. 223 no. xv, Walker obv: XVII, Rev.: XXIII, Album 1183, Zeno 112574
    Note: found on Kilwa island in 1982

    Thanks for any help!
     
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  3. LaCointessa

    LaCointessa Well-Known Member

    Did you try to copy it into Google translate?
     
  4. Nas

    Nas Well-Known Member

    well. this the best i can read from the coin on left side
    سلطان - Sultan
    عز نصره - Az Nusra
    its might be algeria coin or from constantinople


    Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2017
  5. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    No time now to go through fully. Just notice that the lower line on the right "al-mannaan" is incorrect. You miss the "M" , so should be "المنان".
     
  6. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Thanks for the help so far guys!

    @LaCointessa - google translate has not been useful, I'm afraid

    @Nas - The coin is from Kilwa in East Africa. I've identified it and know the inscription, I just can't type it in Arabic! I know 'Sultan' is not on this coin, but your
    عز نصره - Az Nusra does look similar to the yathiku - I'm just not sure it's the same. The second to last letter on your type has an ascender which I don't see on the type I am trying to reproduce - otherwise it looks the same (Maybe this is just font difference? Forgive me, my Arabic is virtually non-existent...)

    @THCoins - what part of the inscription is that? My apologies, I just don't see where it matches with the top picture which I am trying to reproduce. Any explanation would help!
     
  7. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    "Al-mannaan" المنان is the lowest line on the side shown in the right of your picture.
    It is less easy to read because in handwritten Arab a beginning of a word with "al-mu.." or "al-ma.." is written as a ligature. When typing the characters are next to eachother. In the ligature, the second vertical line from the right in المنان is put on top of the little circle. The little circle is a "mim" ("M") character.
     
  8. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Okay - So the reverse inscription I have thus changed to:
    يتق / بالواحل / المنان
    However, the second one still looks a little different from what I am trying to recreate:
    al-Hasan b Sulayman.jpg
    The second line is certainly incorrect...

    (Thank you for your help and patience...)
     
  9. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    OK let's take it one step at the time. I am certainly also not an Arab expert.
    I agree with NAS that there is a problem with your "Yathiku" as translation of the word on the third line on the obverse. Where did you get this from ?
    There may have been a shift of words here as you give your translation of the reverse as "trusts / in the One...". And "(He who) trusts" = يثق "yathiq".
    The next line then becomes : "the One" = "bi'l-waheed" = بالواحد
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2017
  10. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    In terms of 'Yathiku" - I've just double checked my sources and I think that was a mistake on my part. It looks like the transliteration should be "azza nasruhu" according to Freeman-Grenville. I'm assuming this is the same as Az Nusra that Nas is saying? Either way, I think you are right that I may have somehow mixed words around.

    Okay, reverse as it stands: يثق / بالواحد / المنان
    (trusts / in the One (God) / the Bountiful)
    al-Hasan b Sulayman.jpg
    Picture for reference. That looks good to me - unless there is something small I'm missing.

    As for the Obverse, I now have: احسن بن / سليمان / عز نصره
    (al-Hasan ibn / Sulayman / (May his victory be prosperous))

    Hasan doesn't look quite right to me, particularly with the initial ascender.

    (Thank you again!)
     
  11. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    Al-Hasan in your reference again is written with an initial ligature.
    The "L" of "al" sits on the top of the "H" of Hasan.
    The correct form is : الحسن
    (I just notice that an iPad is better at displaying the ligatures than a Windows computer)
     
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  12. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Ah - I didn't realize it was a ligature. Okay, so how does this look:
    Obverse
    الحسن بن / سليمان / عز نصره
    Reverse
    يثق / بالواحد / المنان
    al-Hasan b Sulayman.jpg
     
  13. Oldhoopster

    Oldhoopster Member of the ANA since 1982

    Every time I start to feel like I know a lot about numismatics, I see something like this that to remind me that there is still a lot to learn about numismatics.

    Nothing to add to the thread, just a thank you for reminding me to try to stay humble and to say how impressed I am with this discussion
     
    FitzNigel likes this.
  14. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Medieval East African coins are rare, but quite interesting. It's a bit of a pain to find information on them though, as there is no definitive book or guide
     
  15. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    I should add 'interesting' from their historical standpoint. Admittedly, they are not much to look at
     
  16. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    Looks OK like that. I admire the effort you have put into this !
     
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