Is this a nice Nicephorus II?

Hi everybody,

I grabbed this coin my first night out looking for inexpensive ancients; but, I started working on the attribution tonight because I saw a coin that looked something like it while enjoying a site a CT member recommended today in another thread. https://www.flickr.com/photos/antiquitiesproject/page3

My coin looked similar to one of the Byzantine coins they showed. In less than 15 minutes I found the coin! As I tried to Phokus on the coin (aw, c'mon) I realized it was an overstrike. I am almost sure I saw on Wildwinds that the opening auction price for one like this (but EV40 - 45) was $150! I paid just a few dollars for it. So, I asked myself: "Self? Did you stumble into something "Nice for us?" I figured I should ask you.

Nicephorus II (963 - 969 AD)
AE Follis
Mint: Constantinople
SBC 1782
Obverse: Bust facing with short beard, holding labarum and globus cruciger. + nICIFR b ASIL ROM.
Reverse: Four line legend.
Note: Struck over a follis of Constantine VII.
4.1 grams
25.4 mm x 24 mm

Question: I have a weight discrepancy on this coin again. The weight of the SBC 1782 says the coin should weigh about 9.53 gms - more than double the weight of mine! But the size is right on. SBC says it's 26 mm x 24 mm.
Perhaps the difference in weight is due to wear? Maybe the Constantine coin was super worn and thin when Nicephorus re-struck it? This coin I have is rather thin.

Thanks in advance for any feedback you can offer.

 

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Wear will account for a little weight loss, but the 9.53 gms is just one data point--the example listed on Wildwinds. It looks like weights were all over the map for these folles. CNG's archives show weight as low as 4.23 grams.

 

Nice score LaC! Interesting coin with a lot going on.

 

I Think that your coin is a sb 1783 (not sb1782 )

Concerning the corrosion-patina-cleaning factors we have a loss of about 4% for bronze pieces of the tenth century (thickness of 2 to 3 mm), an estimate based on the mass losses of the Byzantine monetary and commercial weights Sixth century, supposedly not affected by spawning, given their function.

 

That's a very interesting coin--an overstrike--and nicely patinated. It's a good example of that issue and it sounds like it was quite a bargain!

 

Hi TIF. That's good news. Thanks.

@Bnumis - Thank you about the thickness information and about what happens to bronze over time. I will get my calipers out this morning and see what the thickness is and add that to my attribution.

Regarding sb 1783, I did look at that last night. I did not notice reference to it being an overstrike until I reviewed it again after your post. Also I recognize the legend on the reverse does match my coin. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. In a post below (because this one is getting long) I will post the comparison of the two sb attributions in case someone is interested. Again, thank you.

 

Here are the two sb attributions for the Nicephorus II coin. sb 1783 and 1782. I agree that 1783 is the one that applies to my coin. Thanks to @Bnumis

Nicephorus II
sb 1783
BZ36550. Bronze follis, VF, overstruck,
weight 5.244 g, maximum diameter 25.5 mm, die axis 180o, Constantinople
mint, 963 -969 A.D.;
obverse +nICIFR bASILE RW, bearded bust facing, wearing crown with
cross and pendilia and loros, cruciform scepter in right, globus with
trefoil ornament in left;
reverse + nICHF/En XW bA/SILEVS RW/MAIWn,
legend in four lines; very scarce.
SBCV 1783; DOC III, part 2, 7,
Courtesy of Forum Ancient Coins, Feb. 2011
===============================================
sb1782
Nicephorus II (963 - 969 AD)
AE Follis
Mint: Constantinople
SBC 1782
26 x 24 mm.
9.53 gm.
Die position=6h
Obverse: Bust facing with short beard, holding labarum and globus cruciger. + nICIFR b ASIL ROM.
Reverse: Four line legend.
Note: Struck over a follis of Constantine VII.
S1782
Courtesy of www.grifterrec.com, Feb. 2011.

Oh! That didn't work, so here's the link to the two attributions with photographs for comparison.
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/byz/nicephorus_II/t.html

 

Hi Roman Collector! I went back to confirm what I paid for the coin. I see I paid $10 for it considering shipping. Still not too shabby. I paid $3 for another coin I got from that same seller. I haven't posted that one yet. It's not an ancient. I must start my spread sheet or book with this purchase information before it gets away from me.

 

It's fun to figure out overstrikes, eh?

Here's SB1782. Looking on acsearch, it seems that even dealers mistake the two not infrequently!

 

Whoa! Is that part of your collection, @Severus Alexander? Would you say it is Extra Fine? Or Better than EF? (I have not started thinking about the number range within the general grade classification yet. One step at a time for me). And are Byzantine coins treated any differently than Roman or Greek for grading? Thank you for showing me (us) this beautiful example of SB1782.

But, is that coin an overstrike? I don't see it. Or is it that not all SB1782s are overstrikes?

 

I believe in Providence and so I am sure that cash coin will show up in the place it is supposed to reside. So exciting! Thanks in advance, LordMarcovan!

 

Some classical numismatist use grades most don't. Traditionally grades such as F, VF, EF, FDC, ect exist but are meaningless in my opinion. There have been several discussions on it in this forum.
Byzantine coins are commonly over struck and there isn't a separate listing for them. For an ancient coin any type can be over struck. I would recommend David Sear's Byzantine coins and their values if you are interested in collecting from this period.

The numbers you are referencing are from his book. The Web can be useful but is often incorrect. Interesting follis btw.

 

A problem I have with overstrikes is that they come with a desire/need to buy a coin to show the undertype and, sometimes, another of the same coin that is not confused by being overstruck. Many Byzantines are overstruck and every so often you see one that shows a third type that was under the undertype. These are not supposed to be beautiful but they have lots of personality.

Often it helps to shoot an extra photo of the coin placing the top as it was on the undertype. This can make it easier to see what was part of which design. If you turn yours over you can see the top of the undertype head with one bold eye under the reverse legend. People differ on how they value such coins but ones that can be figured out as to what contributed to the mess have some value. $10 is a fair price or even a good deal.

Yes, I do have a page:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/feac70byz.html
but it needs updating to include my latest and greatest overstrike - the Anonymous Class A3 over an as of Gordian III that was 800 years old when it was 'updated'.

 

Thank you for your feedback and suggestions. No, I do not think the Byzantine period is the one upon which I would concentrate. I am inclined to coins related to Judea. But, since I realize how profoundly ignorant I am about ancient coins, grading, and history in general, I appreciate every bit of information CT members supply to me here because it helps round me out and direct me in my learning. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. Thank you.

 

Nice grab @LaCointessa! Proves that bargains can still be had.

 

Wow! That's a beautiful coin. And in my surfing I saw your name in connection with overstrikes. I saved a page; but, did not study it yet. I will save this page as well and read them this weekend. Thank you very much!

 

Thank you. It seems, however, that I paid a fair price for the coin or maybe that I got good deal. That is better than overpaying as I did for my very first purchase, which I was able to return to the seller, thankfully.

 

Probably me cause I am the one who like the hole coins and posted Chinese cash coins haha can't waaaiiit I'm so excited haha. I'll be keeping an eye out for it and will post pictures when I get it thanks again @lordmarcovan

 

I love cash coins too and a cash coin (fake) was the first coin I posted here on CT I do believe; but, since you seem so super excited about it, I sincerely hope you will find the cash coin in your package. I also am going to post pictures. By then I will have received all my goodies from the CT members who generously sent and are sending me coins!