This coin already has great eye appeal. It would have even better eye appeal without the black marks in liberty's hair, face and on the wreath on the reverse. The one's in the hair/cap are more prominent in hand. 1. What causes those types of marks? I've seen them on some of the GSA CC Morgans specifically. 2. Would conservation potentially remove them? 3. If you send to NCS will they assess and decide if even makes sense to attempt and if they determine no just send back to me in it's current slab? I'm not worried about trying to increase the value or anything it's staying put with me. Just want to know if it could remove the marks then it's worth the conservation fees to me. Thanks for any help!
1 - near as I've ever been able to figure the black marks, and they are found on both gold and silver, are caused by coin to coin contact. And no, I can't give you an explanation as to exactly how or why they form, I just know that they do. 2 - yeah you get 'em off, but usually only by dipping the coin. And even then it's not always a 100% effective. 3 - yes, at least that is my understanding.
I think coins like this one are more desirable. They show some oxidization that tell me it has not been conserved/cleaned/dipped, and is more likely to have its original mint finnish.
While that "can be" true, it is "not necessarily" true. What I'm trying to say is it's extremely common for a coin to be dipped and then re-tone after it was dipped. Extremely common ! In point of fact it is far more likely for a coin that has been dipped to tone and tone faster than one that has not been dipped.
1. How would coin to coin contact cause black marks? Please explain. These look like an improper alloy to me - streaking in the planchet. Thus, 2. No, there is no way to remove those marks. 3. If it is an alloy problem, don't waste your money. Honestly, these streaks aren't nearly as bad as some I've seen. I personally wouldn't buy the coin, but these are pretty minor and don't hurt the eye appeal too much.
Thanks everyone like almost always it seems its best to leave well enough alone! Its already one of my favorites and i think a very nice example for the grade (old ngc fatty 65). Maybe it would be in a different holder without the black marks and I wouldn't even own it! And agreed paddy just so you know this isnt the one I was dipping thats an unrelated raw one lol
This, also, i have seen on Morgans where wood chips/debris causes sort of a strike thru looking spot. I believe this is a planchet issue though, as struck, and wouldnt mess with what appears to be a very very nice example of the date/mm
No. I saw your sentence. I'm saying it doesn't make any sense at all. If you're going to make a claim like that, you need to provide either a scientific explanation of how it happens, or how you know it to be true. Because there is absolute no reason that I can think of that coin-to-coin contact would cause black streaky marks like the OP's coin shows. Either show (or explain) evidence of how it happens, tell us a documented case of where this happened (preferably with pictures), or don't make the absolute claim that you know it is true. Because it isn't. You make a lot of claims that "you know are true." I challenge you.
LOL ! You crack me up sometimes ! Your comments remind me of the saying commonly used - pictures or it didn't happen. Yeah right What do ya want me to post pictures of Jason, silver coins with black marks on them and gold coins with black marks on them ? What in the world for ? I mean how many thousands of them have you seen ? I've seen tens of thousands of each. So what's posting pictures of them gonna do, or prove ? Besides absolutely nothing ! I mean c'mon now. How much plainer could I have made it ? I said - "near as I've been able to figure" - do you not know what that means ? It means I don't know this for an absolute fact, but, it's the only thing I can come up with. And then I said, straight out - no, I cannot explain how or why it happens. And you want to "challenge me" ? It's pretty simple Jason. I've seen, and so has everybody else, silver coins that have black marks across them, and gold coins that have black marks across them - tens of thousands of them. It is an extremely common thing. Now at the same time we've all also seen a great many of each of those coins with streaks and scrapes across them that are gold or silver colored - that none of us have any doubt were caused by coin to coin contact while the coins were in hoppers at the mint, in bags, or whatever. And these gold and silver colored streaks all look remarkably similar, in size, shape, and frequency, to these black streaks we see all the time. Both kinds of marks come in all shapes and sizes. The only difference between them is that when they are gold or silver colored you can see the actual damage to the metal, and when they are black there is no damage to the metal. But other than that they all look pretty much the same. Now, couple that with the fact that those who have experimented with trying to get the black marks off the coins by dipping them, and end up seeing that the black marks sometimes come all the way off, and sometimes they don't come all the way off but do come partially off after dipping - and you're pretty darn sure then it's not because those black marks are "bad alloy mixes". Because if they were, they wouldn't come off, or even partially come off ! And that means they have to be caused by something else, and it has to be something that happens a lot of the time, simply because there's so dang many of them. So what's that leave us with ? The black marks aren't dirt, if they were water would take them off - but it doesn't. They aren't grease because if they were acetone or xylene would take them off - but it doesn't. And those are about the only things I can think of that coins, both silver and gold, could be exposed to on a regular basis - dirt in the outside world and grease at the mint. And remember we're talking about BU coins here in most cases. You don't see these black marks on circ coins. But yeah you might see them on some AUs once in a while. So what's that leave us with that could cause these black marks on all these coins ? Like I said, near as I can figure, they are caused by coin to coin contact, because that's about the only thing there is that can happen that often to BU coins. The question is - why are the marks black ? Well, I don't know ! Which I already said - twice now. But I think it might be because it is light contact, meaning not heavy enough to cause damage to the metal and leave obvious scrapes and streaks, but still heavy enough to leave something that can be seen. Personally, I've always assumed, and yeah I'll stress assumed, that something and I have no idea what that something is, that it only happens when like metal touches like metal, meaning gold touches gold and silver touches silver - and then only when they touch or scrape across each other very lightly. And no, I have no explanation as to why it happens that way. But what got me thinking along those lines was because sometimes when take multiple pictures of coins that have obvious coin to coin contact scrapes and or streaks across them, sometimes those marks look gold or silver colored, and sometimes they look black - on the same exact coin ! It's all a trick of the light in those cases - happens purely because of the angles. Kinda like the black and white contrast happens with pic of cameos. In the picture the coin looks black and white. But we all know, with absolute certainty that the coin isn't black and white, it's silver. It's just a trick of the light, nothing more. So I kinda thought to myself, maybe, just maybe, these black marks that we always see are caused by very light contact of like to like metal. And no, they're not a trick of the light, we all know that because no matter what angle you look at them from they are black. Now is that crazy ? Yeah maybe it is. But I couldn't come up with anything else, I mean there's no other reason or cause I could think of, given what I know of these black marks, as I've explained above. I know what they are NOT, but no, I do not know what they are. It's pure conjecture on my part. Could I be wrong ? Hell yes ! But then I said that to start with, didn't I.
Ya know what Jason, let's turn this around. You said - Well, I don't believe ya, so I challenge you. Prove it !
Dang, that is an awful lot of assumption and conjecture for something that you know to be true! The phenomenon is described here (#1 under "Making Strip") : https://www.pcgs.com/books/earlycents/Oops-001.aspx An extreme example is shown here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1825-Bust-S...Details-Obverse-Planchet-Streak-/200766004676 Heritage shows an SLQ with a nearly identical look, which they call a grease streak, here: https://coins.ha.com/itm/standing-l...8-2125.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515 Described here: https://books.google.com/books?id=lDU90MmnGQ0C&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=streak planchet coin&source=bl&ots=jyEzE-FwOj&sig=w1PeQwvIPvowkYRkFteoGYzbwTA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjB3r-ug6fUAhVC6CYKHZJoA7wQ6AEITzAI#v=onepage&q=streak planchet coin&f=false It's similar to the woodgrain pattern you see on copper, discussed here: http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v12n11a07.html Discussed here (the pictures on this thread have been taken down, but it was a much more extreme example than the one shown in this thread): https://www.ngccoin.com/boards/topic/325475-1898-morgan-struck/ I'm sure that @messydesk can also provide more pictures and explanation, if this isn't enough. To be fair, I think what you may be describing is something like what is shown on the Morgan in the following thread. Look at the cheek. I believe this type of effect is from contact with something else (perhaps friction with another coin, perhaps contact with whatever it was stored in). But, this is a *very* different look than the OP's coin here, from a very different effect: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/gtg-1896-p-morgan.283400/
After reading this thread, I'm inclined to think that they are grease as pointed out by both Mark Feld and the Heritage cataloger. And while I have seen these marks before, I don't think they are near as common as Doug is making them out to be, which is the crux of his argument for why they are caused by coin to coin contact. I also don't believe that people will always attempt to remove these types of marks by bathing them in acetone. Meaning, if they are grease, and can be removed by acetone, maybe that process wasn't applied to that coin. The theory that it is a lighting trick doesn't hold water, these black marks are clearly on the coins and are not a visual illusion. The one think that nobody seems to be considering is that perhaps these types of marks are caused by more than one process which would explain why sometimes they are removable an other times they are not.
I think you already proved it. You said: “Now, couple that with the fact that those who have experimented with trying to get the black marks off the coins by dipping them, and end up seeing that the black marks sometimes come all the way off, and sometimes they don't come all the way off but do come partially off after dipping - and you're pretty darn sure then it's not because those black marks are "bad alloy mixes". Because if they were, they wouldn't come off, or even partially come off !“ Depending on the composition of the inhomogeneous streaks that could be caused by improper alloying, the sulfuric acid and thiourea in the dip may react to completely remove, partially remove, or even leave the streak unaffected. I also don’t think that the mechanism you stated for contact marks without damage is a major contributor. You said: “…might be because it is light contact, meaning not heavy enough to cause damage to the metal and leave obvious scrapes and streaks, but still heavy enough to leave something that can be seen” This is a possibility and some of the streaks may be caused by this but I would think the contact material would have to be softer than the coin to deposit metal on the surface and since copper, gold and 90% silver are relatively soft compared to other metals you would find in the equipment around the mint (Steel), I don’t see this happening much. If the coins are the same hardness (coin to coin contact), then I would think that getting just the right amount of pressure to leave a mark without causing damage is not very common. When I consider all the bag marks and scuffs seen of BU coins, to think that there would be a lot that do not cause damage, I don’t know? That’s just my opinion, but it’s something to consider Hopefully, a couple of these proposed mechanisms can help explain what’s happening. At least it’s a little more than saying “trust me”. In reality, there are probably a number of mechanisms that come into play, with improper alloying being a contributor
I like this theory as well. There are lots of opportunities for thin layers of grease/lubrication to contact the planchant prior to striking and there is a lot of metal movement at high pressures. These layers may not be thick enough to show up on a macro scale, such as artifacts like filled dies. May not explain everything but certainly makes some sense and passes the "sniff test"
The black marks in the hair and in the wreath above LAR are planchet impurities. If you dip the coin, all the nice toning will be removed, and the black marks will remain. These will not come off without leaving bad scars on the coin. They're fairly inoffensive where they are. Also note that they all run the same direction through the planchet.
