I am completely stumped on this MS-67+ Washington Quarter

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I'm talking about stuff I could afford to look at: circulated. Not silly uber-high grades that are only worth something because of their plastic housing.

 

I don't collect circulated coins of any type. But classifying my proof IHC as "silly" & "only worth something because of the plastic" solely because you can't afford it proves that you have some growing up to do still.

I have since sold that coin but I promise you that it wasn't overgraded, and it was the most eye appealing proof IHC I have ever seen, and I've had many other collectors on various coin forums concur.

 

I've removed your credentials for the same reason that a twenty-year-old "dude" with good eyes who studies TPGS slabs (?); and a fart (sorry Doug) older than God who has not attended a coin show since the ten commandments were issued; and yes, even a non-writer of fiction who looks at lots of coins and reads quite a bit of fictional nonsense posted on forums written by some I should expect to know better - all three of us with NO CREDENTIALS still know from the actual NGC horse's pen that standards have changed somewhere in the numismatic universe.

The ONLY TPGS PRACTICE we were discussing is over-grading. Changing grading standards and how they happen has also been introduced. Only a fool can deny it or say these particular things have not/ do not /and will not occur. Since you @Lehigh96, the dude, the mummy, and I don't seem to fit the "fool" category... can't we just agree.

 

I was referring mostly to top-pop moderns. Your IHC is very pretty, but I'd rather spend PR-63 BN money for something almost just as nice.

But you have to admit that most of the value is in the plastic. Would you pay PF-66* CAM RB money for it in a raw state?

 

The plastic has that grade because of the coin. Also top Pop moderns are no where near easy to find

 

I didn't post a top pop modern so why would you be referring to them? And there isn't a PR63 on the planet that even approaches that coin.

At this point you are digging your hole deeper and you are embarrassing yourself. I wouldn't buy that coin raw but any expert in IHCs would pay strong money for that coin raw. What's more, you know it!

 

[QUOTE="TypeCoin971793, post: Would you pay PF-66* CAM RB money for it in a raw state?[/QUOTE]

In a split second and I wish there were many more like it. I sold a flawless gem Red 1883 Proof in the 1970's that was one of the finest coins of any type I ever saw. The dealer took my pants down on the price of coin! Nevertheless, when I needed money there was a bidding war with two heated dealers at adjoining tables to get it. One dealer even broke the "rules" and told me to come over and he would pay more. So I did but when both offers kept increasing I realized I made a mistake and sold it to the first dealer at a very good return for a three year period.

 

Maybe I have a very disparaging view of the plastic. When I see "experts" at a show and show them raw coins, they usually give me very lowball prices for what I think the coin is graded. Then I send them off and get a higher grade than expected. Suddenly, these coins are "worth" so much more just because the coin has a plastic tomb. Same coin. Two different values. It does not matter what the coin is. That has been the universal experience I have had with "expert" dealers at shows.

 

That's the sad truth of the current market. Matter of fact, I've had big time dealers take a dump on some of my slabbed beauties. I don't mind telling you that one was the "Dealer of the Year" a couple years back. When he asked me what I wanted for I them, I quoted a wholesale price, he pushed them across the case towards me and walked away without saying a word. Bottom line, they're in the business of poo-pooing coins whether they're raw or graded... setting us up for a lowball offer, or looking to rob us blind. And yes, I am a part time dealer. They play me that way too, even though they all know me.

 

Because the raw market is very small these days. If you sell them something of reasonable value raw you get an offer that reflects their time and effort for having to submit it and having the capital tied up until it comes back from grading. Certified prices are for certified coins. They wouldn't stay in business paying graded prices for raw and then having the coins graded on top of that to sell.

Your age also may be a factor. Many younger collectors stick to online purchasing because the internet doesn't have a bias. There are plenty of dealers that see someone young and try and low ball them especially on raw material because they think they can.

 

The reason is because the majority of the dealers customers are looking to buy slabbed coins from them. Whether that's because it's online and the slab gives peace of mind or because, like myself, they know themselves well enough to understand they're not qualified to successfully buy raw coins. I hope I can comfortably buy raw coins in the future but right now it's just a bad idea for me. Goes back to earlier in the thread where I mentioned whether you despise slabs or not you still need to understand their place because it's a big place.

As for the "rather spend PR63 money for something just as nice" part. As someone who collects mostly MS65-67 US coins I can tell the difference is astounding as you climb the ladder from 65 to 66 to 67 (and I imagine up from there, someday maybe I'll know!) and the cost jumps are justified not just because higher grades are rarer but the eye appeal is a lot greater. You may think a PR63 is similar to a PR66+* and if so then you are fortunate and by all means save the money, but for most people there is a significant difference. It's more than people wanting a higher number on a piece of plastic (even though there are those out there).

 

True, but $60 for this? And that was 50% higher than the next-highest offer.

 

That's the problem "Dude" (hope you get the reference), There are extremely few "expert" dealers at coin shows until you get to the majors like Central States, FUN, Long Beach, ANA, NY International, etc. It's a good bet that you may know more about coins and grading than 40% to 50% of the uninformed weasels who can afford a table at the local shows.

 

When I created this thread, it was in regard to one specific coin. Both of the major TPG's have messed up big time by over grading as well as under grading. They all make mistakes, thankfully they don't make many of them.

The example I started this thread on is an example of (in my opinion) an over graded coin. The number of points can be argued and obviously has been. But on the opposite side of the spectrum, that NGC MS-64 Morgan that was posted in the under graded slab thread was just as big of a mistake. What really got me upset with the '51-D is that somehow CAC had agreed with it. I know that CAC ignores the + designation. Now it can be argued and was, that it got the bean to do it's originality.

The true market for the '51-D 67+ CAC Quarter will speak on the 8th of this month. It's current bid is at a paltry $160.00. The coin was listed as a 30 day auction and there is currently less than 4 days left on it. My gut tells me that is will sell for well under $1000.00 The current NGC guide on the 67+ is at $8250.00 with a 67 at $1100.00 and a 66+ at $185.00. I could be dead wrong and I will admit such, if it pans out.

 

I would agree with you 100% on this. Their business model would almost have to fluctuate. If their standards were to continuously loosen, then no one would submit. They want it to be a guessing game, so that if you guess wrong, you will end up resubmitting in 6 months in hopes of being on the right side of that ebb and flow.

 

That is a hands down stunning Indian Cent. I would agree it is worth every bit of the assigned grade and a bean as well. Those types of coins are what I would expect to reside in the uber-high grades.

 

Those offers by the "Expert" dealers show just how unsure they are of themselves at grading a coin. To them they are just throwing the dice, that or they are real crooks.

 

This has been an interesting thread. JTLee may be feeling like the butterfly that flapped its wings in Morocco, causing a tropical depression that became a hurricane once it arrived in the gulf. Now scaled down to fit into Cointalk posts.
As to the subject of the thread, that lovely quarter, I looked at NGC's posted grading standards. MS65: well struck, with moderate marks. MS66: very well struck, mild marks. MS67: sharp strike, few imperfections.
+ coins must have superior technical merit and superior eye appeal.

I note that the subject coin has at least "moderate" marks, including a significant dig on the cheek (if you draw a line from the tip of the earlobe to the tip of the nose it goes through it) that is somewhat obscured by the brownish splotchy toning. I expect though cannot say from static photos that the luster is exceptional and the toning very attractive.

While "technically" a 65, I can see this coin as a 66* with luster and toning carrying the day. I think it has been overgraded, even by NGC's own standards.

So how was a grade of 67+ arrived at, which seems to me to exceed NGCs standards? I speculate that this coin was part of a submission of much more mundane coins, and when the graders worked their way through the lot they were struck by its beauty. I believe that the luster is great and the pastel toning "floats" on the surface and the graders were bedazzled by it after all the other stuff that passed through their hands. My opinion.

Now I have a question: The TPG's have grading sets of major series for the graders to refer to in order to have some consistency. Assuming the grading sets themselves do not change over time (I don't know why they would) how does "gradeflation" occur?

 

It may be a complete coincidence, but I seem to remember a thread a couple of months back about one of the Big Two selling a selection of coins from their grading sets. Perhaps those sets as well periodically get "upgraded"...?