Very unhappy with Naville Numismatics

Since you can't eat it and couldn't sell it, I hope you are independently wealthy.

Barry Murphy

 

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I've often contemplated this issue -- namely, if a high quality, identifiable ancient coin is stolen, is there really a market for the coin?

My admittedly unsupportable conclusion is that yes, there probably is a market for these coins among less ethical and unscrupulous collectors. I base this conclusion on anecdotal information about stolen art masterpieces that end up in a wealth collector's gallery, even though that collector can never really show it off. I'm assuming this applies equally to rare coins, antiquities, etc. What do others think about this?

Even more, it would be very interesting if any of the dealers who frequent this site can offer firsthand or second-hand information about stolen coins being fenced and/or offered to collectors.

 

It wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

In reality though you better believe I'd PM Bing, and anyone else here that is a long time regular from Florida (those whom I trust) to set up a get together to take pictures with the coin on Saturday before I had to return it, then I'd drop it off at the post office later that day (we have a post office that's open Saturday).

Whom of the regulars here wouldn't be willing to travel 2 or 3 hours to see and hold a $150,000 rare and historic coin that they may never get a chance to see and hold in person again?

 

I realize you weren't serious. Not everyone here knows that though. Dealers all know when coins have been stolen and no reputable dealer would handle a stolen coin. Dealers all talk to each other.

Barry Murphy.

 

You can hold an Eid Mar in New York-- visit the American Numismatic Society's vaults

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@Orfew, I'm sorry to hear about your troubles with Naville. I've bid with them often and have had good (timely, helpful, and genial) communication with Mattia, although it sounds like other have not always had that same experience.

I too was skeptical about the dual platforms when last night I noticed I could bid in NAC on Naville's website (and see current bid levels), when prebidding and display of current bid levels were not possible on Biddr. Sounds like it didn't work out very well, and I hope next time they only use one platform.

 

What is the law on unordered merchandise? I have received the wrong coin from a European dealer who was willing to refund if I returned it at my expense. He was not willing to correct his mistake at his expense. The coin was priced at more than what I ordered by less than the postage but that dealer is dead to me. If someone sent a $100k coin, perhaps they would be more willing to pick up the postage costs but the question remains just how much liability someone incurs as a result of someone else's error. If you throw a gold bar at me, it is assault. If I don't throw it back, is it theft?

 

I'm pretty sure the collectors who frequent this site didn't take your response seriously, but it did raise an interesting question about what happens to recognizable ancient coins that are stolen. I can't believe they're just melted down, nor do I think any ethical dealer would entertain fencing such coins, but the coins must end up somewhere...

 

Probably in the personal collection of a Saudi prince, not to be seen again for many decades.

 

While I'm not an expert on this topic, I will point out that auctions are governed by the terms and conditions posted by the dealer or auctioneer. If you win an auction and pay for that coin, you are legally entitled to that coin. The fact that the dealer sent you the wrong coin has no bearing whatsoever on the coin you're entitled to receive. You can demand that the dealer send you the correct coin regardless of what happens to the incorrect coin that you received. He cannot legally withhold sending it to you based on other conditions, such as returning the incorrect coin.

As for the incorrect coin, it's not yours and you don't own it. However, you absolutely want to avoid any liability for the incorrect coin. To that end, I personally would attempt to force the dealer to arrange all aspects of the incorrect coin's return, and remind the dealer in writing that you assume no liability for the condition of the incorrect coin nor for its safe and eventual return. I would NOT attempt to return the incorrect coin until I had received the dealer's response regarding how the coin was to be returned.

 

I know a bit about the art market. Art thieves make money by ransoming to the insurance companies rather than selling to collectors. The going rate is about 10%. Opportunistic thieves generally find they're unable to sell at any price. There are lots of examples of thieves destroying art or keeping it for years, but I can't think of a major stolen picture that has been recovered after being kept in secret by a collector. There are established public records to check for stolen works of art, so it's a bit more formalised than the coin market. My suspicion is that even unscrupulous people don't want to be thought badly of, and wouldn't want their relatives to discover their secret stash of stolen goods after their death. There will be exceptions, of course, but my guess is that recognisable coins will be hard to fence.

 

It would be civil theft, and in most states you could be sued for three times the value of the coin, plus attorneys fees, court costs, and maybe even punitive damages.

It may also be theft or grand theft, depending on the state you are in, and you could do serious time.

 

Yep, I was stating the obvious -- I doubt anyone here would think they could keep a coin that was incorrectly sent to them.

But the problem of liability in attempting to return the wrong coin is quite real -- look at the number of threads about coins that were purchased but never received. Plus, it can be a considerable inconvenience to return a coin if you're working and you can't just toss the coin into the postal service's lap. So it's always best to work out arrangements with the dealer who sent the wrong coin.

 

I hope they come to realize that they’re on the verge of losing a great customer!

 

You know me too well. I would travel within reason just to see and hold the coin. Someone who posts on this forum had his/her coins stolen some years back, and has not seen hide nor hare of them since even though he keeps watch on seller's sites. I'm afraid that gold and silver might be melted down just so a thief could unload them for something. Thus, an earlier posting about securing your collections.

Yeah, after reading through this thread, I'm not certain I want to do business with this company. Something like this gives a dealer a reputation not just from the customer, but everyone they know. I'm still hoping for a good outcome @Orfew

 

I'm in the next county from you so you wouldn't have to ask me twice! Plus we could have food and drinks and make it a proper get-together!

 

Btw I hope I didn't come across as wanting to keep (steal) any coin that accidentally comes my way with my earlier comment.

Only time something like this happened was with my Visigoth tremissis where I was sent one from a different mint than the one I had bought originally. I emailed the seller but they never replied back, plus it was from a fixed price listing and the coins were not in auction, so I figured that my coin wasn't one that someone else purchased (what are the odds that two Visigoth tremisses would be bought at the same time from the same seller?). In fact I found absolutely no listing from this seller (live or ended) for the one I received. The two coins were similar enough in condition where I just didn't press the issue further. After six months since receiving the coin without a word from the seller, I think its safe to say it is mine for good.

 

Thanks to all for the supportive comments, they are appreciated. The most frustrating piece of this for me was that I had plenty of room in my budget to go higher, but why would I when the hammer was down and the coin was supposedly sold to me?

As for returning the wrong coin back to Naville. They asked me to send it back and told me they would reimburse my expenses. I sent it tracked and insured. I then sent them an email with the cost and the tracking number. this was several days ago. I still have no idea where my solidus is or when I can expect it. They have not even told me if it was sent to someone else. If so, I have to hope it does not get lost in the shuffle. I do not honestly know if I will ever see this coin.

I assume my money is as good as anyone's, I will take it elsewhere. It is unfortunate because they had many coins that I liked.

I will post an update to this thread once I hear from them.

 

A general comment on auctions - I wonder if they're worth it at all. I don't like buyer's fees, it's hard to guess the unfavourable exchange rate (that my bank or PayPal will charge converting AUD into €,£,CHF,USD), plus whatever tax I'll get charged at customs. I much rather negotiate directly with a dealer and know all my costs upfront - which is how I've obtained my last few coins.

In addition - the biddr platform isn't user-friendly and requires you to be there as the auction ends... And most auctions finish when it's the very early morning in Australia (even with representation, I have to be awake to provide instructions)... They make it hard for the customer to participate - it's a pain in the a-- and it isn't a modern viable business model in my opinion. How many auction houses have gone out of business in the last few years?

Compound this with the problems described above - where it's hard to even contact the auction house.

Really, who can be bothered?

 

Its not always true that you need to watch the hammer fall. Biddr has a "proxy bid" feature in some sales, by which Biddr will bid on your behalf up to your maximum when the lot goes live. Not all auction houses use this feature, but many do.

 

@Greg Heinrich I find auctions to be worth it when you are either the sole bidder on an item or the winner at no more than 10% above opening bid. If you go higher than that, once you add buyer fees, you may as well have bought it directly from a dealer website.

The only exception would be bidding on a coin that seldom ever comes up for sale anywhere. I've bid aggresively on a few Indian coins you'll never find on vcoins because of their rarity. Not aggressive enough unfortunately as I lost out on both.