1st ELAGABALUS DENARIUS

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by gregarious, May 25, 2017.

  1. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    As @TIF once pointed out, my Elagabalus suffers from erectile horn distinction, but a small trace of the horn is still visible. My best guess from owning this coin is that something clogged that area of the design on the die prior to striking it. At least that's what I think from owning and having studied this coin.

    CT-Sallent-ElagablusDenarius.jpg
     
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  3. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I'm reading the article now, trying to make sense of the often nonsensical interpretation by Google Translate.

    The author did (or had done) a series of experiments and apparently the dried (or partly dried) tip of bull's penis matches the "horn" in size, shape, and proportion. See the article for pictures of the various stages of the experiment.

    As for disbelief about a Roman emperor agreeing to have such an accoutrement, even today all kinds of weird things are done in the name of religion. What is gross or embarrassing to us may not have been so to the ancients.
     
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  4. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    We err when we assume that the cultural norms of an ancient time were even similar to what we have today. Elagabalus never would have thought of appearing in public dressed the way any of us might (possible exception of TIF's anti slabbing t-shirt which I am sure he would have worn). I suspect E was as proud of his symbol of his priesthood as our modern churchmen are of their crosses.

    I'm sorry about your coin dysfunction, Sallent. I agree with your filled die theory but it is rather fun to think some Victorian gentleman could not tolerate such a coin in his collection and tooled it. We are talking about people who went around caring grape leaves on statues, you know.

    Should we mention for the record that the horned portraits were only used at the mint of Rome and only for a short while on a few types. Perhaps it was a special issue for some special occasion or anniversary. Oh the things that we can never know!
    rn0150bb1741.jpg rn0152bb2783.jpg
     
  5. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    You have a fine specimen there. Yours have a nice strike and nice centering.

    Here is my first and only Elagabalus from @Sallent

    IMG_8182.JPG IMG_8184.JPG
     
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  6. Mikey Zee

    Mikey Zee Delenda Est Carthago

    A very cool and interesting thread!! Terrific posts everyone! And congrats on your new cleaned but non-tooled denarius @gregarious
     
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  7. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    No P-P on his forehead: HEY, maybe this a RARE coin, being "normal".
    This guy is another freak-case...
    RI Elagabalus 218-222 CE AR Antoninianus Radiate Roma seated.jpg
    RI Elagabalus 218-222 CE AR Antoninianus Radiate Roma seated
     
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  8. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    There are no antoniniani with the horn as far as I know.
     
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  9. gsimonel

    gsimonel Well-Known Member

    I don't think I want to meet this author.

    My guess is that if you tried hard enough you could find many things that would match the horn; the tip of a bull's penis would not be the first thing that would come to my mind to test. (This is probably why I'm not much fun at parties.)
     
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  10. gsimonel

    gsimonel Well-Known Member

    Are you saying that a bull penis was the symbol of the Baal cult? I was not aware of this. If true, then I might have to reconsider my position.
     
  11. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Same...
     
  12. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I'm relying on a very faulty Google Translation, but it seems the author found what she feels is evidence of that. In the paper cited on page 1 of this thread, see pages 64-67.

    Here's the Google Translate version of part of those pages:

    "Even more so than by the special Syrian Baal representation
    My thesis of phallic head-dress: by finds of so-called
    Priest heads of the imperial period. They belong to a peculiar
    Group of small Roman bronze heads, on which male gen-
    They are attached to the forehead on the apex (Fig.
    23), 38 are more rarely erect "or are on the forehead itself mon-
    advantage ". The foundations are scattered throughout the entire Roman empire,
    Nevertheless, all objects have an almost uniform dimension between 4 to
    6 cm of pure head height and, as far as possible, fixing
    Of various types, probably to be placed on wooden poles.
    They are supposed to be carried in processions!"
     
  13. gsimonel

    gsimonel Well-Known Member

    I don't read German, either, but the article does include some pretty convincing coin photos.

    It does not, however, say how many bulls, if any, were harmed in the production of the research.
     
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  14. chrsmat71

    chrsmat71 I LIKE TURTLES!

  15. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    A cursory review of coins in ACsearch shows "horned" portraits of Elagabalus appearing on the denarii, dupondii, and sestertii with the "emperor sacrificing" reverse. I didn't see any horned portraits for other reverse types, although I could have missed some.

    That does make me think the horn is a religious accoutrement.

    Some non-denarius examples from various archives:

    [​IMG]
    sestertius

    [​IMG]
    sestertius



    CT-ElagabalusDupondiusHorned.jpg
    dupondius

    [edited to add]:

    Whoops... spoke too soon. I found a horned bronze with a non-sacrificing reverse:

    [​IMG]
    as
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
  16. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    While this may be unrelated, the horns on Elegalabus always reminded me of medieval depictions of Moses which showed him having horns. It was meant as a sign of his holiness. Was this maybe a common symbolism in the part of the empire Elegalabus came from and continued in a different tradition to the Middle Ages? I have no idea, just idle speculation as I avoid grading exams...
    IMG_1766.JPG
     
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  17. stevex6

    stevex6 Random Mayhem

    [​IMG]

    Ummm? ... *awkward*

    Maybe that lil' guy has all the moves?

    :bear:
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
  18. gregarious

    gregarious E Pluribus Unum

    i'm not trying to be naughty here, but perhaps this is where the terms "horny" and "dickhead" come from? //"this post will self destruct in 5 minutes"
     
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  19. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    I just spewed my coffee. Now that is funny @gregarious
     
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  20. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    LOL @gregarious !!! Yeah, I already had that raging through my mind all through this thread! We think alike! :D
     
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  21. gsimonel

    gsimonel Well-Known Member

    Well, it seems reasonable that "horny" refers to a bull. The bull has long been associated with virility.

    Although I wonder why bulls are so frequently sacrificed in pagan religions. Perhaps it's because one bull could feed so many people, or maybe because one bull could sire so many cows, which could then feed even more people. When you sacrifice a bull to a god and people are hungry, it truly is a sacrifice.
     
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