Nero fouree mule.

Hi, My first post on here. I found this coin whilst metal detecting in the UK. From internet research I gather that it is a fouree mule of Nero AD54 but would be interested in any opinions as to it's likely origin official or unofficial. It is about 17mm diameter and weighs 2 grams. Obverse legend: AGRIPP. AVG. DIVI. CLAVD. NERONIS. CAES. MATER. Reverse: No legend, "AVG" within wreath. Many thanks.


[/URL][/IMG]

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Welcome! What a cool find!

Your third image didn't post (a broken image link is shown).

As it sounds like you already know, the reverse of the coin should have a legend, a wreath, and EX SC in the wreath.

Off the top of my head I can't name an official Nero denarius with that reverse but there's not much information in the top of my head . You might want to search various archives and RIC to see what it might be muled with. Perhaps it's just a fantasy reverse?

Assuming it is of ancient manufacture, it is unofficial... assuming you believe that no fourrees were official.

The "real deal" Nero & Agrippina denarius, with her legend on the obverse, is a coin I'd love to own. The existence of such coin raises some interesting issues.

 

nice!

 

welcome and nice find!

 

It is not at all unusual to find fourrees combining the wrong reverses. This may have been due to what was available and may have been on purpose so the faker could tell his work and not be fooled by it when it came back around. We will never know.

 

Thanks for your helpful responses. I found that there appear to have been a few earlier and later emperors coins with a similar reverse. An auction house described one as "Rare and seldom encountered reverse type". I think I read somewhere that early on there were more fourrees in circulation than solid coins due to corruption in power. Am I right in thinking that some fourrees were official or is that a grey area? Here's a virtually identical reverse of a Vespasian denarius of AD 70.

So I guess there's a possibility that my coin could actually have been made later than the obverse of AD 54, depending on the age of the die design of course? I never guessed what a puzzle this would turn out to be, to say that this is only my second Roman coin find. It's certainly been interesting/educational researching this one and I agree that we will never know quite what it is for sure. For what it is worth I will get the museum's verdict and update here, but the process will no doubt take many months.

 

Experts will tell you that they are all unofficial and I will tell you that anyone that uses 'all' in their edicts will probably regret it. Most fourrees were made by counterfeiters scamming the public. I note there are more from some periods than others and propose that some were made for a reason other than pure greed. It could be something as outlandish as coins made to discredit the issuer of the 'real' ones. Could politician A have coins made in the style of those made by politician B hoping people would think B was a scam artist? Did those entrusted to make coins for politician C also make some on the side for their own benefit? In the Imperatorial period, a hotbed for fourrees, coins were made on the road and in places not as well controlled as the central mint at Rome. We, probably, can never prove anything but we definitely can never prove something, including an official fourree, never existed.

A few are below. I regret I do not have one of the EID MAR fourrees. They exist.

 

Thanks Doug. My very first impression on unearthing this coin was that it was a forgery due to the silver plating. Though it is quite possibly more likely a forgery than not, after much research I guess there could be all sorts of reasons to officially mint fourrees, such as if there was a silver shortage or/and a shortage of small change, like an emergency issue, who knows! I never thought of the political possibilities. Either way it is a rather old curio.

 

Welcome!!

What a cool find!! If only such things were possible on this side of the pond.

 

Sounds like you had a great trip, I did a similar one about that same time to the Western Australian Goldfields which unexpectedly turned into a 2 year stay with about 9 months total prospecting with a metal detector. I was happy as a newbie with about 550 pieces for 8 oz, lots of tiny, tiny bits, biggest 9 grams.
I'll admit that I have been very lucky with my finds in the UK on my last few searches, and I would say particularly lucky, this was all on very hunted out ground with very few targets, a lead pilgrims ampulla 1350-1530, a gold 16th century Tudor dress pin head which has to be reported under the "UK Treasure Act", a roman bronze coin, a sterling silver medallion, and now this roman curio coin. It is of course not always like this, my best find last outing was just a small lead weight with a hole in it.

 

In all honesty, we many not always know the status of our solid cins either. We do have good silver coins that are obviously not from the official mints. Where do we draw the line in identifying official mint products and those that are actually very good counterfeits that are almost as good as official or maybe even a little better than the worst of the real thing. We can not be 100% certain.

 

Thanks Mikey, I know what you mean and if there were alluvial gold in the UK we would all be happy!

 

I find that the best train of thought is to expect to find nothing and you will not be disappointed, anything else is a bonus. That is when the most unexpected finds seem to happen, when you are not trying much! (Not been shouted at yet for being at a cross topic, or is that ok?.)

 

That Vespasian reverse type isn't even from the same mint as the obverse. The AVG within wreath was struck at Ephesus 69-74 AD. So, undoubtedly what you have is an unofficial plated hybrid.

 

There is a rare Vespasian Judaea Capta type struck at Lugdunum that is found more often than not as plated. Here is my example which is solid silver.

Vespasian
AR Denarius, 3.10g
Lyon mint, 71 AD
RIC 1120 (C), BMC 388, RSC 243
Obv: IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG TR P; Head of Vespasian, laureate, r.
Rev: IVDAEA DEVICTA; Palm tree; to l., Judaea stg. l., hands bound in front

I find it hard to believe the authorities were unaware of all the plated coins of this type in circulation. Apparently, the public knew about them, hence the 'test mark' on my coin's obverse. Could this be a case of corrupt mint officials skimming off profits?

Someday I would like to obtain a plated example as a companion piece with my solid one.

 

I agree that that particular example is about 14 years later and a different mint. I did see a similar bronze reverse of 26 AD though very worn, it was on an erotic coin/token.