RIC Offical At Last

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by David Atherton, May 23, 2017.

  1. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    The Rome mint struck an eagle with base type for both Vespasian and Titus Caesar. The type comes in two variants, one with the eagle clutching a thunderbolt (while standing on the base - what talent!) and another lacking a thunderbolt. RIC just describes the type as 'eagle clutching thunderbolt' with no mention of the other variant without thunderbolt. I know I've brought the issue up here on CT before, but my latest purchase moved me to finally contact Ted Buttrey, co-Author of RIC II.1, about the thunderboltless variants. He agreed that they are different enough to deserve their own catalogue numbers. It's only right considering different RIC numbers were assigned just based on which way the eagle's head is facing!

    My new coin is actually a Titus Caesar eagle and base with a thunderbolt.

    V861.jpg Titus Caesar
    AR Denarius, 3.33g
    Rome mint, 76 AD
    RIC V861 (C), BMC V191, RSC 59
    Obv: T CAESAR IMP VESPASIAN; Head of Titus, laureate, bearded, r.
    Rev: COS V across field; Eagle stg. front on garlanded altar, thunderbolt in claws, wings open, head l.
    Acquired from Sphinx Numismatics, May 2017.

    My other example I've had for eight years is a non-thunderbolt variant, newly assigned RIC 861A.

    V861.jpg
    Titus Caesar
    AR Denarius, 3.43g
    Rome mint, 76 AD
    RIC V861A (C), BMC V191, RSC 59
    Obv: T CAESAR IMP VESPASIAN; Head of Titus, laureate, bearded, r.
    Rev: COS V across field; Eagle stg. front on garlanded altar, wings open, head l.
    Acquired from Roma Numismatics, November 2009.

    It's highly possible every variant of the type struck for both Vespasian and Titus Caesar have corresponding non-thunderbolt examples.

    I would really like to know if these two variants are intentional and represent different attributes of the type or just the whim of individual engravers. Sadly, I doubt we shall ever know.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
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  3. alde

    alde Always Learning

    You should get recognition in RIC for naming your find like paleontologist do when they name a dinosaur. Maybe "Titus Athertonus-1". Lol. I'm sure glad we have you to find these rare new varities. I wish I had your eye for detail.
     
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  4. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

    Another cool find. Congrats!
     
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  5. gregarious

    gregarious E Pluribus Unum

    historical David and nice coins. i have this Titus eagle variant..76 ad titus  76 as denarius eagle reverse 002.JPG titus  76 as denarius eagle reverse 003.JPG
     
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  6. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    I wish I could take credit on a new discovery, but alas, all I did was point out the fact that there are two eagle/base types, not just one. Someone who mattered listened - and Voilà!, now RIC acknowledges both.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
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  7. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

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  8. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    A very nice find, congrats. Has the kind of look I am always a fan of too.
     
  9. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    Thanks Mat. Some of the portraits during the middle of Vespasian's reign have this 'large head' style. A year or so later, the neat and fine 'small heads' appear and remain until the end of the reign.
     
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  10. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    More news today on this question of thunderbolts from Dr. Buttrey. After consulting Coin Archives and realising that the vast majority of these things do not clearly show a thunderbolt, he has decided to reorganise the RIC listings for the type.

    Until a decision is made regarding the RIC listing, I'm reverting back to labelling the non-thunderbolt type as a variant without its own unique catalogue number.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  11. stevex6

    stevex6 Random Mayhem

    Congrats, David

    I clearly have a Vespasian example, wearing Converse All-stars


    vespasian JA photos.jpg
     
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  12. gregarious

    gregarious E Pluribus Unum

    haha! or they could be nike
     
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  13. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    Interesting reverse - the line the eagle is standing on appears to be a half attempt at a thunderbolt by a lazy engraver wishing to hurry off to the wine bar for the evening. In a private communication, Dr. Buttrey has commented that some of these reverses show the eagle standing on a line that may be a quick rendition of a thunderbolt. Your coin is a good example of what he was talking about.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
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  14. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    One last update. After further thought on the question, Dr. Buttrey has proposed the eagle & base type's original design included a thunderbolt, although not well rendered because of the unwieldiness of the design. Over time, either from laziness or expediency, the engravers began omitting the thunderbolt altogether. It seems most of these were struck without thunderbolts, so they were probably dropped very early in the issues production.

    Both variants with thunderbolt and without thunderbolt will continue to be listed under the same RIC numbers, although the difference will be noted in an updated description of the type in the Addenda.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
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