What is world's oldest bronze coin? (not gold/silver)

Google did not help or I was a sucker in term of goggling.

What is the oldest bronze coin?

An electrum(gold/silver mixed) of a Lydian coin is the oldest I think, but since it is electrum of gold/silver it also functions as gold/silver buillion. – What bronze coin is the oldest?

Sorry if this has been asked before.

 

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Olbia dolphins from Thrace are fairly early maybe 550 BC? Not sure if you consider that a coin though.

 

One question more if any can give a respond as I don't want to create one more thread:

From wikipedia:



"Bronze coin issued by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, 2nd century BCE. Coin edges are curled to prevent swindlers from stealing metal by scraping the edges."


?????
Can anyone tell me why someone should scrape the edge to steal this bronze metal? - This is not gold or silver?

Was bronze an expensive commodity?

 

Worlds oldest Bronze coin? For that you must travel to China.
@TypeCoin971793

 

what constitutes a coin, you might want to be more specific, otherwise abandon all hope ye who enter here.

 

The oldest bronze Greeks in my collection are from the 4th c. BC. Good Question.

Found this on Wiki.

The name drachma is derived from the verb δράσσομαι (drássomai, "(I) grasp").[n 3] It is believed that the same word with the meaning of "handful" or "handle" is found in Linear B tablets of the Mycenean Pylos.[3][n 4] Initially a drachma was a fistful (a "grasp") of six oboloí or obeloí (metal sticks, literally "spits") used as a form of currency as early as 1100 BC

 

As a “coin” I think of a commodity where you could exchange it to a bread or perhaps a fruit.

Or even paying your taxes.

 

ok..that' would most likely be a corrie shell, usage goes back some 4000 years..

 

I'm all about this thread, good questions @Herberto .

Unlike Roman Republican Denarii which is possibly unknown why they are clipped, the Seleukids did this solely for appearance. They were cast this way from the mint.

 

O.. you said bronze..ok prolly the oldest would be spade and knife Chinese money.(and they did make bronze shells also) Typecoins thinks mine are fake(which they could be)but here's examples

 

the question here is a good question, but you'll find no definite answer that will stand the test of time. the answer will vary from expert to expert and person to person, but it is one worth studying and asking about for you to form your own opinion

 

With that broad definition, cowrie shells and other such items could be considered coins. I don't consider those to be "coins".

I agree with @gregarious: for the definition of "coin", study the opinions, then form your own .
...

The definition will vary depending on the person you ask. I subscribed to this definition of a coin: a flat or flatish piece of metal, round or roundish, marked by an issuing authority, and given in exchange for goods or services. Or, as per Webster's dictionary, "A piece of metal (or, rarely, of some other material) certified by a mark or marks upon it to be of a definite exchange value and issued by governmental authority to be used as money."

Others will certainly disagree but I don't view Chinese "knife money" as "coins". Money, yes, but not "coins". Argue with me all you want; you may be more correct in your views than I am in mine... but I probably won't change my mind . I also do not consider Olbian dolphins to be "coins". That doesn't mean knife money and Olbian dolphins aren't fascinating-- I just don't view them as "coins".

I don't know who issued the oldest bronze coins. The oldest bronze coin in my collection is 5th century BCE (Syracuse AE tetras, 2nd Democracy, c. 425 BCE). There are some bronzes from the slightly earlier Deinomenid Tyranny but I don't have one. There could be earlier bronzes from elsewhere but I haven't really looked for the oldest bronze. The oldest coin in my collection without regard to metal is 7th century BCE (electrum; Lydian lion trite).

 

lol, i concur-ish wiff you TIF

 

I always thought somewhere in Sicily was the first to issue bronze coins (as we understand them, circular in shape with obverse and reverse). Apparently Plato tried to convince the Athenians to adopt bronze coinage based on the model of Syracuse, but I don't have the relevant passages at hand. So my answer is 5th century Sicilian bronzes are the earliest bronze coins, but I can't remember if Syracuse was the earliest on the island.

 

I agree. It seems that the perspective of coins are from the West. Many AE coins (and other materials) were in use in the East (China), for many years prior. What I really enjoy is that the Chinese were brilliant by making their currency FIAT as opposed to the West making the underlying metal weight as the value of the currency. Therefore, the Chinese could cast/stamp coins with the value on them, and TELLING you its worth.

Some examples:

I BELIEVE this is my oldest Western AE coin:

SICILY Kamarina Æ Onkia 13mm 1.5g 420-405 BC-OLDEST Gorgon tongue - KAMA owl r lizard in claw pellet in ex SNG Münch 411


However, here are some of my Chinese AE currencies: (Many could had been produced LATER in the dynasties.)

@TypeCoin971793 has a good grasp of these currencies, and would be a better person to weigh in on real dates, etc.


China Zhou -Chou- 1000-200 BCE Dynasty AE Bronze cowrie - VF - Rare


China Shang Dyn 1766-1154 BCE Ant Nose Ge Liu Zhu 2-6g 19-5x11 very scarce H 1.10


CHINA - ZHOU Dynasty, 1122-255 BCE square foot spade 350-250 BC AN YANG - 3 lines rev bronze 31x52mm 7.45g H3.184 S13+


China Shang Dyn 1766-1154 BCE Ant Nose Ge Liu Zhu 17-4x10 very scarce H 1.10


China Zhou Dyn 1122-255 BCE AE Chuan Bead Money 40mm


China Ming Knife money 400-220 BCE bronze Hartill 4.42-3


China ANCIENT Cowrie - BONE 2 holes for clothing or funeral bier 20mm Hartill 1-2v Coole 51-66


China Cowrie Shell Pottery

 

I should have shown the coins in my previous post. D'oh



Sicily, Syracuse. Second Democracy
c. 425 BCE
Æ tetras, 13 mm, 1.9 gm
Obv: Female head right (Arethusa?); XXX before; X behind
Rev: Hippocamp right, octopus below
Ref: CNS 30; SNG ANS 1382; rare

The Kamarina onkia shown by Alegandron has some larger siblings from approximately that time as well:


SICILY, Kamarina
420-405 BCE
AE tetras, 3.11 gm
Obv: Head of Athena right, wearing winged Phrygian helmet; dotted border
Rev: KAMA (legend from top to bottom), with owl standing left, lizard in talons; three dots in exergue
Ref: Westermark / Jenkins 202, SNG ANS -., Calciati III No. 39.


SICILY, Kamarina
420-405 BCE
AE tetras, 3.34 gm
Obv: Large head of Athena left, wearing crested helmet with wings
Rev: Owl standing left, with lizard in talon; KAMA (retrograde) upward in right field; three dots in exergue
Ref: Westermark / Jenkins 198 (see FIG. Pl. 35 / 198.24), SNG ANS 1230 Calciati III no. 28/4 (dotted-border type).

 

@TIF may not consider crowrie shells or spades, or dolphins, to be coins. I think under a loose definition of what a coin is, they definitely can be considered coins.

Either way, coins or proto-money, I think they are still of great interest to Numismatics and well worth collecting.

Here is my bit of proto-money.

 

The problem with this definition is that the vast majority of all coinage was not marked for value.

 

True, if you need the mark of value then some Roman Republic denarii would be considered coins, while many other Roman Republic denarii would not. That is not a definition I would be willing to accept.

 

That's why I prefer my own definition, immediately preceding the Webster quote, intentionally omitting mention of a mark of value .