A week or two ago, I bid on an item on eBay that I was interested in (proof Eisenhower Dollar with designer signature). I don't really collect proofs, but the two together in a PCGS slab seemed like a cool thing to own. I ended up being outbid at the last minute and decided not to be a bidiot and go crazy. Here's the link: http://www.ebay.de/itm/272650744775?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT A few days later, I was curious to see if there were any others available on eBay and found this one up for auction: http://www.ebay.de/itm/USA-One-Doll...196860?hash=item3f7c69047c:g:JRUAAOSwHptY-dOV Noting that it had the same exact pictures as the previous one, I decided to take a look into the feedbacks to see if the Ike Dollar was in there. I stretched out his feedback as a seller to the last 200 sales and noticed the exact same buyer and feedback on about 90% of them. http://feedback.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAP...Seller&keyword=272670196860&searchInterval=30 This seems like a pretty clear case of shill bidding. I'm curious if anyone's had any luck exposing a shill bidder or shutting down an account that uses it. I assume eBay has a sort of "don't ask don't tell" because shill bidding gets them more money, but I had to ask. @chrisild @micbraun
It's hard to say in this case because the item you listed is just a GEM Proof they failed to meet whatever grade he wanted or just went with the cheaper authentic only method of grading. That isn't the type of coin if you had a bulk submission of to unload that you could individually picture them all. It could be what you think, but could also be someone that really likes those or knows they can sell for more under a certain price.
If the suspected "shill bidder" is the same individual who has left so much feedback, mostly for low dollar items, I'm not sure how paying the fees on so many non-sales would automatically net the seller "more money", but perhaps I've misunderstood. On the other hand, there's also this one (below) apparently won by the same individual prior to the one you bid on, so perhaps they have numerous examples and have simply used prior listings as a template? http://www.ebay.de/itm/USA-One-Doll...-GEM-Proof-Designer-Edition-RAR-/272641489899 Repeat buyers are nothing new, and while this would seem a rather severe case of it, I'm not sure there's enough evidence to suggest any wrongdoing at this point.
If the shill bidder and seller are buddies, or the seller himself is using another account, the money is either returned, or never changes hands in the first place. In order to drive up bids for other suckers to buy at inflated prices. EBay is a scam just like anything else. If there is a way to exploit it, if there is a way to cheat, if there is a way for some greedy putz to squeeze an extra nickel out of someone, they will do it. Of course there are more honest sellers than dishonest ones. But one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch baby.
@baseball21 @BooksB4Coins Thank you both for your input. Did I mention this is eBay Germany? Here, you actually do most of your payment through direct bank transactions, outside of eBay. After winning a bid, you can "mark as paid" and even leave feedback even if you haven't actually sent any money. I believe the loophole goes both ways that the seller can also leave feedback without completing the transaction, but we wouldn't be able to check the purchaser as that stays anonymous. After the feedbacks have been left, the dealer cancels the sale, gets to skip out on fees, and relists items at a price he wants to sell them at. I also don't see likelihood that a seller in Germany has three separate proof Ike Dollars slabbed with designer initials, but I obviously can't rule that out either...
The two linked by the OP, as well as the link I posted, all show the same coin. Unfortunately, this doesn't mean as much as it otherwise would since they are essentially generic slabs, and it's perfectly possible the seller is simply using a "stock photo" instead of imaging each individual example he wishes to sell.
I see a couple of red flags: 1) too many negatives, buyers complaining about counterfeits 2) one buyer (buddy ?) buying/bidding on all low value items to increase the price or to improve the feedback rating (?) 3) the item description says it's not a business but rather an individual seller (yeah sure) so returns are not accepted. Nothing screams "fraud", but I certainly wouldn't buy from them.
I did notice that where it's not like there is a huge supply there. Get one if you want or let it go in all honesty, policing the internet is a waste of time.
But that's the thing... can the seller simply skip out on paying the fees there? I don't know, so it's an honest question. If cancelling just a few listings I wouldn't think much of it, but considering the number of "purchases" made by this individual over at least a number of weeks, I'd like to think eBay would put their foot down, not for the benefit of their customers, but because it impacts their bottom line. If this is the case it certainly would be a rather obvious load of bull from all involved parties, but I still do not see enough evidence to say they are, for a fact, up to something. It's an interesting discussion though.
I doubt it's a shill if you didn't win, and if he is winning that many items. That's a shill fail if it is indeed a shill. The point of shilling is to raise the bid without winning. I doubt a shill would win this many items and not cancel the sales. Canceling the sales would prevent them from paying seller fees, and if they are not canceling the sale, they are paying a lot of fees for fake sales. My guess is it is a very limited market, and they buyer likes the items, so just keeps buying from him.
Random world coins, mostly no/low value items? Somebody is working on their stats...? Vest pocket dealer? ...or someone who doesn't know what he's doing? Lol
Yes, you can shill on a coin, win it, cancel the sale, and then leave feedback (to your 2nd account or to your buddy). I do not know how frequently it occurs on ebay, but there are a few select sellers that do it on many of their auctions. I have a buddy that is part of the ebay counterfeit / fraud detection group (for coins), and when it happens, we pass those auctions along to him. I don't know how they handle it after that, but I assume they look for trends, and eventually, warn/lock accounts if there is enough evidence. Another method of shilling (and one that is particularly frustrating) occurs when a shill bidder bids the minimum increment a number of times until they reach (and surpass) a legit bidders maximum bid. So if a potential buyer puts in a healthy maximum bid early in the auction, lets say 200 bucks, and that raises the current bid $50, the shill bidder then will bid all the way up to $205. At that point, the shill bidder gets their last bid retracted (back to 200, but not winning) so they can squeeze everything they can from the top buyer. It's all about greed, and it is for this reason, I only bid with a few seconds to go on ebay auctions. About a year ago, a couple of EAC members started a Facebook discussion group to identify fakes/bad sellers on ebay. It has helped to clean up ebay (especially for novice buyers)...to a degree.
