What I really Don't Like About CAC...

Please note, I'm not saying that the same exact CAC'd coin is inherently worse than a non-CAC'd coin. What I was getting at is that it's a negative insofar as seeking an upgrade, which many folks may assume of Rattlers. If it doesn't have a CAC sticker, then it may receive a CAC sticker or it may not - the buyer would have to make the judgment call on the coin's grade and actually self-grade the coin directly. One things for sure: it's far less probable that a CAC'd Rattler would upgrade.

And, if you like the coin as it is and it's in a Rattler, then CAC wouldn't matter except a higher price paid and to assure you of the grade (as a third opinion - yours, the TPG, and CAC).

I think we're both saying the same thing.

 

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There is a basis in reality when the market reflects it. Reality is and always will be opinion. If a bunch of people want to pay more for a rattler because they think upgrades are automatic because they read it somewhere that is reality for the price.

As I said their belief doesn't matter that they are wrong if they will pay up for that belief.

 

Interesting for sure, but the lawsuits would likely end them. We can infer some conclusions like the pop reports but unless we get hired there that's the best we will do

 

I stay away from CAC coins.

They are already marked as having a maximum grade.

I've never bought one but then again, I have never gone looking for them either.

I look for coins that no one noticed as being under graded or nice for the grade. I mostly look for and buy raw coins.

 

Stock markets, bank runs, futures trading, luxury goods, marketing and its consequential influences on overall demand, etc. are all based on perceptions, whether or not it's tangible. CAC will likely increase the value of a slabbed coin to some degree, for sure, but I was getting at something different.

Unfortunately, the same exact coin without a CAC sticker may receive higher bids in many cases. For instance, an MS-63 CAC Peace dollar with rainbow toning in a Rattler will likely sell for more than a completely different, typical 1922 Peace dollar without a CAC sticker. If however, you take that CAC sticker off, it may go for far more because people will be more sure that it's an MS-64 or higher, regardless of whether or not it's based on reality. Now, that's not what I or other numismatists would think, necessarily, since we buy the coin and not the holder; but that's what many other folks even including some numismatists would think to be true or highly possible. Which is why sellers can take advantage of that perception.

I think I just wasn't clear or thorough to begin with lol

 

Oh gawd! Only a real collector would do that!

 

If a coin comes into CAC, they scan the bar code, find it's been seen before and rejected, then what? Do they actually have their graders look at it again, or just send it back to the submitter as rejected? If graders look at it again, do they know it's been rejected before?

Cal

 

I don't know the answer to that one so I would just be guessing.

They look again, sometimes a previously rejected will sticker, it is not common but will happen sometimes.

 

From CAC's website FAQs:

"All PCGS or NGC coins that are submitted to CAC are reviewed for CAC verification whether they have previously been submitted to CAC or not. Occasionally a coin that has previously been rejected for CAC verification is reconsidered by CAC and stickered."

http://www.caccoin.com/faqs/

 

I a have purchased 1 slab with a CAC sticker, I actually purchased the coin not a slab or a sticker.....a price was quoted the money laid down and before it was picked up the sticker came off.
I paid for a nice eye appealing coin with a nice strike and luster , not a sticker or plastic.
When I see a coin I like again the offer or consideration is all about the coin...not what its in or and sticker....I refuse to pay for for either .

 

I "think" I might have a slab(tomb) with a CAC green bean, it might be my Texas Half Dollar from 1936. The TPG graded it something like MS-67 or something. I graded it nice sharp strike BU blast white. The bean and the MS mean nothing to me, the eye appeal of the piece is what it is all about.

I bought the coin in a Stacks auction while I was overseas. It should have been mailed to my USA mailing address but wasn't. Stacks failed to mail it and I had a chill go down my back like I paid lots of dosh for a coin misplaced. But they found it and mailed it to my address and I got it finally months later.

 

Again, perception over fact. If you wish to discuss perception, that's fine and is a perfectly reasonable consideration, but there is a very distinct difference between what you're now arguing and what was initially said.

Regardless of how the other gentleman intended it, his post, as written, was a stretch. If you've half the experience you suggest, you know that an accepted rattler will in no way automatically be a "negative", or at a disadvantage, to any/every unstickered rattler when it comes to the possibility of an upgrade.

 

Curious as to why the sticker came off the slab, but (apparently) the slab remained on the coin.

Cal

 

Yes, I stated it in a way that can be interpreted absolutely, which was not my intent. I should have emphasized the word "probably" in my first post. Since three independent professional graders agree on the coin's grade (2-3 from TPG, 1 or more from CAC - I'm not sure how many look at it at CAC), even though a single numismatist collector may think it's better or worse than graded, it'll still probably regrade the same. I say "probably" not to mean that it will definitely happen for each individual coin, but that the majority of CAC coins will likely regrade the same. Do I have proof? No. But I'd be the odd one out if I thought the grade was incorrect (though I may be correct, especially if they're giving the coin a quick 5 second glance).

Hypothetically, if I do go through a bunch of CAC coins and self grade them, and they're all say, MS 63 w/ green CAC stickers, then most or even all will probably be self-graded as MS 63. Would I assume that it's MS-63 absolutely, sight unseen? No. I'll still look at the coin, esp. if I'm interested in buying it. But at the end of the day, I'd bet most of the grades are correct.

Overall, I don't mean this in a sight unseen manner, or assuming that the grade is correct without analyzing the coin itself. I browse online through hundreds of coins a day and look at the coins shown in the pics. If I'm tired, and only want to look at certain "Rattlers", I'll probably just put "Rattler -CAC" to weed out all CAC coins from the search as they tend to be overpriced and it'll save me some time. Are all CAC coins absolutely overpriced? No, but chances are they will be.

 

Because I purchased " the coin" not a sticker,and told the seller the only way I would buy it was to remove the sticker.
I refuse to by any coin with a sticker as for slabs yes I do own slabbed coins. Most probably my collection is 25% slabs and 75 % raw. And most likely breaks down the same percentage buying at a show or a coin shop.
As for the slab it was an old pcgs rattler.
What's really funny is showing the coin in question to people "in this hobby" who's opinions I do trust and value due to their years of experience 99% gave the coin at least 1 to 1.5 point upgrade .
The sticker no matter who has placed it on a slab means nada to me!
If I purchase a coin be it slabbed or raw I accept full responsibility for buying the coin be it good or bad. Not the opinion of someone I never met or don't know.
I find no value from hear say.... I trust my own eyes and experience , have I made mistakes ? Am I human? Well yes to both questions .....have I paid for mistakes ? Again yes! But paid for my mistakes not someone else's.

 

Sticker, shmicker.......if it don't pass muster with me it ain't allowed in the collection. I will admit that green beaned coins usually do pass.

 

Don't you think most of us on this thread would consider ourselves to be good graders? And that, like yourselves, most of us "real collectors" buy a coin only upon careful examination and consideration and regardless of the holder it's in?

Despite our grading prowess, CAC brings consequences to the market which can affect our decisions and therefore its influence needs to be responsibly considered, which I believe is the gist of the OP.

 

I respect and admire your approach and would do the same thing if I were a dealer. But many of us collectors don't have time to go bargain hunting, i.e., poring over binders at shows looking for "undergraded" coins (while knowing it's highly unlikely the dealer hasn't already pored over his binders looking for undergraded coins).

Instead, I go right to the cases of slabs. If a coin grabs my eye from 3 feet away, I'll ask to see it. If it happens to have a CAC sticker, fine; I'll know it'll hold its value, since it's already "marked as having a maximum grade" (although the sticker only means it's solid for the grade, not necessarily "maximum").

But to treat the CAC sticker as if were somehow the devil dressed in green makes no sense. It's no reflection on one's grading, just another opinion and one the market has proved valuable.

 

And in the mid-1990's this exact same post was quite often being made about slabbing companies. At that time very few coins had ever been examined by a TPG.

Markets mature over time. I still dislike slabs, but that is the direction the market has gone. It wouldn't surprise me in 20 years to see CAC stickers become the benchmark that slabs have--"it doesn't have a sticker; there must be a reason!"

 

I'd like to see CAC consider anacs coins. It would be interesting if they did.