Here's a raw 1879-O I recently purchased. Can you point out the elements that would be treated more leniently in this coin than that of an S?
OK, I am having problems even taking a stab at the coin above. I am a novice, maybe not even that. Can someone tell and show me what hairlines, scratches, and bagmarks look like?
Not with that one. As I said, the leniency is not afforded all O mint coins. The '79-O is known for being of Average or Above Average in regard to strike. As such it is graded no differently than any, (but the exceptions), other Morgan. Now the '84-O, the '86-O, the '89-O - those (among others) are known for being weakly struck, with the '84-O the least of those so of those 3. To explain: the '84-O is soft to average; the '86-O is weak and soft; the '89-O is quite weak and soft. Beginning to get the idea now ? These are things you need to know if you want to be able to grade coins correctly and accurately.
So would the 79-O I posted be graded by lenient standards? Regular standards? Or higher standards (such as those applied to an 80-S)? I'm assuming regular standards. So, according to those regular standards, how might the pictured coin grade?
The terms are really self-explanatory. Bagmark for example is just another name for contact mark. They come in varying degrees of severity, can be quite small to quite large, but are all the result of some other object hitting the coin and leaving what might be described as a hit, ding, gouge, or even reed marks (which is when the reeds of one coin strike the surface of another coin and leave behind an impression of the reeds. Hairlines are just what they sound like, very fine lines on the surface of the coin. And when I say very fine, I mean very fine, they are often so fine (as in small) quite difficult to see with the naked eye. And even with a loupe they can sometimes only be seen when the coin is held just right (at a particular angle) under a light. Scratches are also just what they sound like. Just as your fingernails will leave a scratch on your skin other objects will leave a scratch on a coin. On that O coin above you can see scratches in front of the mouth, a the back edge of the cheek under the ear, in front of the crease between the chin and neck, just to point a few. Bagmarks on the other hand are found on the cheek, near the tip of the neck, on the nose, in the fields on front of the face, etc etc. Hairlines - ehhhhh, don't really see any on that coin. But as I said, you might not unless the coin were held just right under a light.
You are correct - regular standards. But I'm not sure you want me to grade the coin as what I grade coins is seldom what anybody wants to hear. But so be it - I'd grade it AU55. The coin has obvious wear in quite a few places.
I am happy to get your grading input on the coin. Again, I'm looking to learn, not to get rich quick. I paid AU prices for the coin but bought it for the eye appeal of the toning. I think it is beautiful. Rim toning is my favorite because it offers the beauty of toning while framing the coins focal element.
I see dull gray areas that look like rub. Also small scratches consistent with what a large heavy coin picks up in circulation. AU55 sounds about right.
Yes, has it been that long? If I understand you correctly, the coins were so good it's as if they're not even Morgans themselves, lest not the ones we all know and love. Therefore, because of the remarkably high quality of those particular dates/mm, they have to be graded using a harsher scale, as to keep the playing field level with all the other Morgans. I think you sold me here. It's hard to ding or reward for things that cannot be applied evenly across the board. We don't damn a 92-O for strike issues anymore than we bump up an 80-S for being well struck. Doug, I appreciate the long, thoughtful reply. Thanks.
The 1879o is not just an alleged "weak strike." That date is known to have an average or above average strike. If one looks at the posted pictures, there are several flattened spots in the hair, cap, and cheek. On the reverse, the wing tips also appear flattened. There is light wear on that coin. It has somewhat attractive toning, but is not a MS coin; it is AU 53-55. The wear isn't just a light rub, so as to make it an AU 58 slider-- there is noticeable light evidence of circulation in several places on the coin.
Guys, just a quick review. In your opinion what are the best books to get to learn about and grade Morgans? @GDJMSP
Well yeah, kinda. You gotta remember, there's one of me a whole lot of you guys. In other words it's easy for all of you to remember my name (1 name) but hard for me to remember thousands of them. And besides that I'm terrible with names, it is the one weakness in my memory. You can show me a coin, and 15 years later I'll still remember that coin - but I'll probably have forgotten your name Especially if I don't see you or interact with you much during that time. Speaking of which, you have been well known, at least to me, for taking numerous breaks from the forum. So while I think I remember a name, sometimes I'm just not 100% sure I'm right. But I do like to personalize my responses when I can, especially with those who were just whippersnappers when they joined this forum And I'm glad you understood the explanation
There's probably been more written on this subject than just about any other - due to the overwhelming popularity of the coins. And learning to grade Morgans alone can take some a lifetime. But ya gotta start somewhere. So, this is where ya start, and these books are not just about Morgans, but they are the necessary starting point. https://www.amazon.ca/Grading-Stand...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=KQR0W0VDW2T37EXRE4XQ Now there is a 7th edition of that book, this is the 6th. And I'm recommending you get this one if you wish to learn to grade correctly. This is the 2nd book I recommend - https://www.amazon.com/Official-Gui...=1493397269&sr=8-3&keywords=pcgs+coin+grading And this one is online - http://www.coingrading.com/ And that's just the start - but do start with these ! When you want to continue move on to anything written by Q. David Bowers. He has several books on Morgans.
Would this be an example of a weak strike? The obverse to me just doesn't look sharp for lack of a better word.
Nope. The strike is average. There is a bit of circulation rub on the hairlines of the obverse. That is a lightly circulated coin.
That was one of the reasons I asked because if its circulated its the most overgraded coin I've seen to date. Its in a pcgs MS66 slab. Any other opinions? I know TPGs arent perfect and many here dont have the kindest words for them. Still Id like to think grading a potential AU coin a 66 would be a pretty uncommon slip up and they have good reason the call it unc. Not my coin by the way just one listed for sale.
You have got to be kidding!!!!! MS 66 slab? That is a date with decent strikes, and there are flat areas in the hair on the obverse. I would have sworn that it was an AU 58 for sure, for rub. Sure fooled me-- yes, I think it is quite over graded.
That's because it isn't. The coin has obvious wear. And unless I'm mistaken that is a wipe mark in front of the face which means it should be in an details slab. edit - if it were not for the wipe, I would grade it no better than 55. But, it's ungradeable because it does have the wipe.
Glad my "something looks off here" initial reaction was correct. I'm getting better I guess. Thanks for replies!