What happens to a "woody" that is acid etched?

If we took a poll, i wonder how many CTers would call BS or not. Hmmmmm

I DID hear thru the grapevine , that you were once a coin dealer many moons ago.

Sidenote- the child prodigy theory does seem plausible, since i recall u werent well versed in slang of any kind

 

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Grapevine? I'm an open book. I managed an upscale coin shop in a major city for several years. That was before slabs. Although I bought and sold coins, stamps, and jewelry, I would never claim to be a "real" dealer. It was something to do as a learning experience. Today, even a fool can buy and sell coins.

Here is one for you: One night after midnight we did a silver deal (before the bust). We had to count a briefcase full of one hundred dollar bills FOUR TIMES because the total kept changing! Somehow, I think we may have sold too much silver for not enough money. Hers's another one: A Russian lady bought a one hundred ounce silver "door stop" less than a week before the crash. Every time I saw her on the street after that, the way she glared at me made me fear for my life. Put those two stories into your "BS or Not" poll.

 

and he reads like Proust

 

CORRECTION, CORRECTION, MISINFORMATION ALERT

My mouth is wide open. Get the crow ready! SORRY!

Previously, I posted this bit of misinformation: "While turning the ingots into strip that is thin enough to punch out planchets, it is passed through the hot rollers back and forth. At each pass the rollers have been adjusted closer."

Due to the fact that I never saw the rolling mills in operation, and could not figure out how the workers would carry a long strip back to the "front" of the mill...I ignorantly assumed the strip went back and forth thru the rollers. Turns out this was a completely stupid assumption!

Doug and Oldhoopsterare correct. The strip goes through the mill in only one direction. When the strip gets too long to handle easily, it is cut.

Doug posted: "...from all the videos of it I've seen, they [rolling mills] only go one way. I'm not saying it can't be done back and forth, it certainly could. But it would require roller machines with a transmission - one more thing to break - to do it."

 

This is an awful lot of speculation about metallurgy without engaging any actual metallurgists.

@BadThad
@Lehigh96 (I know you say you aren't one, but you've got the schoolin')
@robc (worked on research for new coin metals, but hasn't been seen here since 2012)

 

Doug wonders: "The one thing I'm still wondering about, on Insider's coin, the uniformity of the depth and width of all the grooves left behind by the acid - that one I still haven't visualized. I mean ya just wouldn't expect that all hunks, chunks, streaks of impurities would all be of the same thickness and width. Some of them would almost have to be wider than others and thicker than others. But that is not what we see when we look at certain areas on that coin."

The etching is as all different depths, directions, and sizes.

 

My experience is in the manufacture and subsequent of steel. Copper and other non-ferris metals are processed in the same manner, only on a smaller scale. That being said, I would think the processes today are much different than in the 1860's.
Steel is cast into ingots, cooled, then heated up again and moved into position in the rolling mill. The "rolling mill" consists of many sets of rollers, each station reducing thickness by a certain set amount. This "rolling mill" can be several city blocks long and consist of 20 or more mills. The picture below is only 7 mills in length. I remember seeing an ingot moving very slowly, walking speed, and seeing the same ingot, via CCTV, moving at a very high rate of speed exiting the final rollers.

 

When we speak of woodies, it is caused by incomplete mixing of the alloys. Any impurities in the metal would be seen in the finish product and called lamination's. Just a small amount of impurity, 1/8 inch in diameter, would roll out to a long "stringer" several inches long by the time it goes through the last mill. This stringer is never seen, and is common, unless it comes through to the surface, which could peal off in subsequent operations. We have seen coins like this.
The actual improper mixing of the metal alloy is not my area of expertise and the change in direction of the etched lines is very baffling, as normal grain should be in onlu one direction. Could the various directions after etching be a combination of grain, rolling direction, and metal flow during the minting process?

 

Please note, the rolling mills I refereed to previously and seen here,


are different than a mill used to cut metal, as pictured here.

 

mgmgmg75 posted: "Any impurities in the metal would be seen in the finish product and called lamination's..."

This is not quite correct. Lincoln cents are composed of an alloy. Even the alloys made using old shell casings are not considered impurities as that is what made up the "melt." When actual impurities, dirt etc. get into the mix, they are often hidden inside the coin: "...This stringer is never seen, and is common, unless it comes through to the surface, which could peal off in subsequent operations." As soon as the surface starts to peel off, that's the lamination.

 

Couldn't @Electron John use his fancy gizmos to tell us exactly what the elongated granules of a woody are composed of?

I know both lead and silicone are used as supplements to achieve desired softness of certain brass alloys. From what I've read, lead will actually accumulate towards the outside of an ingot during cooling. Then some will detach during future mechanical processes. Up until around the 1970s we were much less concerned about the health risks associated with lead as well. Could woodies be a result of minute amounts of lead (or other commonly found elements in brass alloys) contamination?

 

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing. Improperly mixed alloy and impurities are different. But, any impurity rolled into a metal is called a lamination, even if it can not be seen.

 

In this video where they are actually making cent stock and you can see them rolling ingots at 6:15. The narrator states that they 'are passed 22 times from a dull ingot of 20" long to a strip over 35' long'



You can also see them rolling stock in this video starting at 2:12 but from an earlier time period at the mint.


It's probably different now but these videos are from a time period where many woodies would have probably been still made.

 

And here I was still convinced that you were a 70 year-old woman

 

Sorry, we are not saying the same thing. A homogeneous mixture of different metals to make an alloy is not laminated. A chunk of metal that has layers of different metals inside (out of sight), which may be described as laminated by Superman with his x-ray vision, is also not laminated as far as numismatists are concerned.

AFAIK, all informed numismatists do not say the surface of a struck coin, planchet, or blank is laminated until part of the surface peels up. Most of us do not have the opportunity to see a coil of coinage strip with a lamination visible.

BTW, a clad dime is laminated as three layers of metal are bonded together. This is a dime with a double "clam shell" error when the three layers "delaminate." This is not the type of lamination we are writing about.

 

Those videos are great. Some of the terminology is not correct. Example, hubs are not mentioned and blanks do not become planchets until they are upset (left out of film).

Just came across a modern "woody." This is a 1945-S cent made with cartridge case metal that was not mixed properly. Hopefully you will be able to see "red" copper with "yellow" brass color streaks.

 

Fix that white balance!!!