Pertinax Sestertius

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Julius Germanicus, Mar 16, 2017.

  1. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    If I got that statement from a so-called professional, I would write them off as not worth further consideration. All sestertii of Pertinax are from the Rome mint. The statement is blowing smoke.
    I would be interested in hearing what CNG has to say about this. At the very least it casts a reasonable doubt on the coin they sold. I looked it up on their site half expecting to find the coin had since been withdrawn. It had not.
    https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=274987
    I suppose it is not their place to expertise the coin that they did not sell but I have to wonder if they would be willing now to accept your coin to sell on consignment. It would also be helpful to know if the coin they sold in 2014 still exists as it is shown. It is possible that the CNG coin was polished up by the buyer and resold, eventually, to you. While I do not see the coins are being the same specimen, this would be an explanation allowing it/both to be genuine.

    If the seller is not willing to accept the return of the coin, I would submit it for a Sear certificate or for NGC slabbing explaining in advance to them that the CNG coin exists. From Sear, I would pay the extra $10 for the 'detailed' certificate and specify I wanted his comment on the matter of the CNG coin. I don't know if he would do one like that but you can ask.

    If both Sear and CNG were willing to go to bat for the authenticity of your coin, I'd sell it to whichever one of them was willing to buy it. Whatever expert opinion I got on the coin, I would not feel right selling the coin to anyone other than the expert willing to put his money where his mouth is. Meanwhile, I would not buy another coin from the seller under any circumstances. He may be right, I am not in a position to be certain, but there are plenty of sources for coins without playing me for a fool by dipping to his statement. The question is not whether the coin is of Rome mint style but whether it was made closer to 200 AD than to 2000.
    Please keep us posted on future developments from this point.
     
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  3. Julius Germanicus

    Julius Germanicus Well-Known Member


    Thank you so very much, Doug! I just wrote CNG and will keep you informed :)
     
  4. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    Come on! Look at the evidence! They are the same coin, or cast from the same mold. The differences posters cite are invisible or so minor as to be explained by touchups. The shape is highly unusual. The flan almost looks melted at 11:00--a very rare appearance. The flan at tip of the beard is highly unusual. A pit here are there can be filled in. If Julius bought his after the CNG coin was sold, it is surely the same coin. If Julius had his before CNG sold theirs, they are both highly suspect.
     
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  5. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Yes, but those are two very different things. I have faced this before. When someone buys a distressed coin and tries to put lipstick on the pig, they create a 'situation' which is hard for the rest of us to read. If they are the same exact specimen, it is hard to say what the truth is but one possibility is that the coin was genuine and abused heavily by some fool probably hoping to upgrade and up-price the coin with his 'art'. If the two are not the exact same specimen and both can be laid on a table side by side, things look bad for both and at least one is certainly a fake.

    Online resources now include images of coins taken a hundred years ago. When the coins in those old images show up, some of us think it is really great and proudly say our coin is 'THIS COIN'. When, however, someone does something to a photographed coin (cleaning, tooling, repatination etc.) we will increasingly find evidence that something changed. We can live with a fool buying a coin for $200 and wrecking it so we can buy it for $100 but when a real coin is thrown into question because of this or when a real coin is allowed to be cloned, we all lose. What we need here is to know for certain if the CNG coin still looks like it did in 2014 or if it now looks like the OP coin because it actually is that coin. In one case we have two sellers whose reputation might be unfairly compromised through no fault of their own. In the other, someone made a mistake and sold a fake (or two).
     
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  6. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    Lots of good arguments here.
    However, at this stage there is enough doubt in my mind about the coin that I would
    return it, if possible.
    Alternatively J.G, if you want to give it one further try and are willing to put more work into it, you can send it for appraisal to Dr. Brandt, Plesa, or also Lanz.

    (die Meinungen zur Münze im N-F sind auch für mich überzeugend genug - besonders die von Frank).
     
  7. Nemo

    Nemo Well-Known Member

    Who is the dealer that sold the coin?
     
  8. Julius Germanicus

    Julius Germanicus Well-Known Member

    WinNumis, Luxemburg.

    In the meantime, I got a response from the nice people at CNG. One of their numismatists will review my coin and get back to me a.s.a.p. :)

    By now I tend to believe it should be one and the same coin.

    1) The coins share the same weight so it is very unlikely that one should have been the host for casting the other.

    2) Modern casts tend to be lighter than the host coin. 23 grams seems perfectly OK to me for a Sestertius of Pertinax.

    3) I wonder why someone would take a rather worn coin (graded fine by CNG) instead of a more desirable one in a better overall condition, to make casts of it.

    4) Also if someone wanted to make casts that could pass as the original, a coin with a uniquely shaped flan like mine should be the last thing he would consider to get away with it.

    All of this brings me to the conclusion that this is indeed the same coin, apart from the fact that someone obviously has "tampered with it a little" in 2015 or 2016.

    If this should turn out to be the case, it would nevertheless still be a genuine Pertinax Sestertius and as such:

    a) a rarity per se and despite the "cleaning", "repair" or whatever it has endured
    (didn´t most or all ancient bronze coins go through some of that?) still a
    desirable coin
    b) it is still not ugly at all and I like it
    c) it might be the best Pertinax I will ever be able to afford for my collection.

    So - would´t you keep it if you were me and an able authority classified it as ancient???
     
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  9. GregH

    GregH Well-Known Member

    As I said, the style is correct. What you say is plausible. It could simply be different photography conditions on the same coin. I'm keen to hear CNG's opinion. And if it were my coin, I'd want it examined by an able authority as you suggest.

    I remember, a long time ago, there was a thread about an Antinous coin, that everybody condemned as a tourist fake, and yet David Sear deemed it genuine after all. I think the able authority has the last word, and we can all move on.
     
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  10. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    If the coin proves to be one and the same, I would be happy to have it. I agree fully with your points a, b and c.
     
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  11. Black Bart

    Black Bart Member

    I agree with everything that dougsmiht says. It appears to me that both coins are probably false and that the Luxembourg dealer in question is far from an expert on ancient minting sites and techniques. So let me restate a opinion I've seen expressed very often in this forum: only purchase an expensive coin from a source that offers (and honors) a lifetime guarantee of authenticity. Even then, unfortunately, it is usually either expensive and/or difficult to obtain such a professional prouncement that will satisfy some denying dealers/sellers. The best bet is submission to David Sear, but for relatively inexpensive coins this is not a financially viable option. In the case of the Pertinax in question I assume the purchase price was high enough to warrant spending $50.00 or so to authentic it. If the owner chooses this path he must make certain that this course of action will be honored in advance by the dealer (does he publicly offer a lifetime guarantee?) or the result will just be more money down the drain if the coin is pronounced false. Believe me, there are literally millions of false pieces in existence. The time and effort required to produce these pieces only proves that there is a ready market for them. I've attached a photo of a Pertinax from my 'black box' that would undoubtedly find a new home via the internet.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Julius Germanicus

    Julius Germanicus Well-Known Member

    While I am waiting for responses from the dealers, here are some profile pictures of my coin:

    P1970046 (1).jpg

    P1970048 (1).jpg

    I am no expert. Is there something that makes this look like a cast?

    The exact weight of my coin is 22,73 gr, as opposed to 23,30 gr quoted for the one sold by CNG.

    Could this be within the range of measurement deviations? I doubt that 0,57 gr can fall victim to manipulations.

    On the other hand, I do not see any obvious manipulations in the area at 5 o´clock on the obverse of my coin that looks like a hole on the CNG coin. Should´t it be expected that filling a hole would increase the weight of a coin instead of lowering it?

    Or may what appears as different in the two coins be actually just different lighting conditions?
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
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  13. Nemo

    Nemo Well-Known Member

    If I were you, i would post all these pictures on forumancientcoins "possible fakes" board. They have some outstanding specialists there that would be able to answer some of the more technical questions.
     
  14. Julius Germanicus

    Julius Germanicus Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the hint, Nemo! That really opened my eyes and will make me question the authenticity of some other of my rarer Sestertii :-(

    Meanwhile, ANOTHER identically shaped Pertinax turned up:

    Pertinax%20K%C3%BCnker%2010_2016%20149kb-1.jpg
    I think it makes no sense to write Sear about mine anymore because it is quite obvious now.
     
  15. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Where did this one show up, Julius?
     
  16. stevex6

    stevex6 Random Mayhem

    Crappy, that's too bad ... I hate finding-out that awesome looking fakes are out there (man, it's hard enough sifting-through the authentic coins!!)

    Hmmm well, hopefully that'll be good enough to get your money-back => (oh, and make sure that you keep the fake, so it doesn't filter back into the coin-system)

    Hey, on the bright-side => now you can go find another cool example!!


    :rolleyes:
     
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  17. Nemo

    Nemo Well-Known Member

    We all feel your pain of finding a fake. I really hope you're able to get a refund from the seller. Let us know how it turns out.
    PS. CNG would probably benefit from seeing that new example.
     
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  18. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    I hate the crooks in the world, and especially the crooks in our hobby. I'm sorry for you. I sure would like to use some of my old fashion interrogation techniques on the SOB who put this on the market.:mad:
     
  19. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I was really rooting for a response from CNG that would make it possible that the two were the same specimen. The third coin leaves me interested in hearing if they reply and what they say but hope is diminished.
     
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  20. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    Key thing now J-G, is that you are able to return it.

    As I mentioned before, you may want to consider in future seeking the advice of local experts (I mentioned a few) for an in-hand evaluation.
     
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  21. Julius Germanicus

    Julius Germanicus Well-Known Member

    https://www.kuenker.de/de/archiv/stueck/140208

    Honestly I had hoped for something like that as well. But with the third coin being sold in the same month as mine, I feel quite devastated.
    No response from CNG yet, but I´ll inform all three sellers today.

    I seriously hope so, too! I´ll make an offer to keep the fake for, let´s say, 50 USD (is that a reasonable price?) or else send it back and ask for a full refund.
     
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