Greetings from Spain, I'm a new member here, so apologies in advance for any errors! I'd love to get your thoughts on this Mexican 8 Reales. It has several chopmarks, but one of them caught my attention because it seems rather uncommon. From what I've found, it looks like an "endless knot" (or mystic/Bowen knot). If anyone has further details or history about this particular mark, I'd be very grateful if you could share. Additionally, considering it might be a rare chopmark, do you guys think it's worth submitting to NGC? Cheers!
Very interesting coin. I've seen a lot of chopmarks but nothing like that one. Although I'm an avid collector of counterstamps, I have no chopmarked coins nor have I ever studied them. My only thought is is it really a chopmark or something added at a later time. It just looks very different than anything I've seen before. Good luck in your research and I hope someone here can help you. Bruce
I keep coming back to look at this. Now the only experience I have with chopmarked coins is with trade dollars and the early Spanish pieces of eight.... Here's my quandary.... That 8 reales shows somewhere between 6-8 chopmarks. That tells me that coin has see a lot of trade.... Yet, the coin itself appears near mint state. I cannot reason out in my mind how a coin that has seen that much trade can be in such a state of preservation. Admittedly, I am not a world coin guy so I may be barking up the wrong tree here.
Cool coin with an interesting knot but I know nothing about chopmarks! That said I wouldn't have it graded as the chopmark shows the coin is legit to most collectors! Your decision though, here's a couple of my Mexican Reales coins, I can't miss a posting opportunity!
Thank you all for replying. As Randy rightly pointed out, a while ago I also had the exact same doubt about chopmarked coins. You'd think they should be much more worn considering all the places they must have seen. That was until I started getting interested in them and realized that while it's true for most, there are exceptions. For example, my Calos III 8 Reales (which was my first one) is older and has even more chopmarks and it's in very good condition.. I imagine they would just chop them and toss them straight into the vault. I buy all my coins from highly reputable auction houses in Spain and they come with a certificate of authenticity, so I have peace of mind on that front. But the coin we are discussing, with such an unusual chopmark, really has me intrigued. Where did it circulate? Where is that chopmark from? The reason I brought up getting it graded is to see if NGC might note on the label that the chopmark is rare or something similar, which could add value to the piece. However, I've never submitted a coin for grading before and I'm not sure if that's something they even do. Fretboard, nice 'duro'! That's what we also call that type of coin here in Spain. By the way, if you spot any weird phrasing, blame Google Translate! I'm still getting the hang of English
Amazing Carolus III nice coin with duplicate chopmarks, I've seen doubles and triple chopmarks before on feebay! Welcome to CoinTalk @Alcazar1936 always good to have a member here who Google translates!
The knot-like chopmark almost looks like a flower chopmark from Indonesia, possibly Madura Island, but your coin is dated quite a bit later, so it could really be from anywhere in eastern Asia. Cool coin!
It reminds me of the Finnish pennia. I wouldn't bother sending it for slabbing. Unless there's a known catalog for them, one could easily create a new chopmark in their basement and make new 'varieties'.
Don't know about the symbol, but it's interesting. In my experience, coins can be pretty heavily chopped and not otherwise very worn. Most chops I see are Asian characters, but some are not. A few examples of chop mark types from coins for which I have photos:
I have a few Mexican pesos that were used as trade dollars, and have bankers marks / chops on them. Mainly Chinese characters. I have Trade Dollar style coins from several countries, with and without chops. I also have them from Ancient times… Bankers Marks: Persian Achamenid Type III spear over shoulder Darius I to Xerxes II Ca 485-420 BCE AR Siglos Bankers Marks Incuse rev Egypt Ptolemy I Soter Tet Obv-Rev Delta bankers marks RImp Marc Antony 32-31 BCE AR Legio X Equestris - Caesar Denarius B bankers mark Eagle Galley Standards India Matsya AR Vimsatika 650-600 BC stamped bankers Athens Owls
While there may be rare chops* found on 8 reales or similar popular trade coins, the TPGs consider all of them to be damage and couldn't care less about what they look like or even if they are contemporary or brand new (the exception being limited to US trade dollars). I'm certain the "certificate of authenticity" from auction houses only applies to the host coin. Chops are not considered to be official marks from a known governing authority since they were typically applied by shroffs (merchant money traders). No serious collector considers chops to add any authenticity to the host coin because nobody knows who or when they were applied -- the shroffs simply were certifying that the alloy met their standard for silver content. A very interesting point that Bob Gurney makes in his book "Counterfeit Portrait Eight Reales -- The Unreal Reales" is that coins were manufactured for the China market by third parties well after the time of their official issue. Any of these would also have been examined by shroffs and could have received chops. Counter-marks/counter-stamps issued by known governing authorities, on the other hand, are noted by the TPGs and rare ones can significantly raise the value of the coin. *a chop is a mark so calling them chopmarks is redundant
Strange because it seems to be a northern European symbol. The X on the reverse also looks out of place. Did they ever counterstamp coins in Europe? Were there European merchants in Asia who adopted the custom and used their own symbols?
The symbol is usually called a Looped Square. I question the authenticity of the chopmarks. They are oddly well struck into the coin. The use of the X symbol is not something usually seen - especially on coins supposed to circulate in Asia. The time period of when the Looped Square symbol would have been chopped into the coin is off and very odd to be used by a merchant where this coin would circulate. My guess is that someone recently added the chopmarks to the coin to create value to an already damaged coin (spot removed near wing at 3:00). Probably an Apple Mac fan (it's the Apple Command Key on Macs). And contrary to what has been stated in this thread, a chopmark is no guarantee of the coin being authentic and there are numerous examples of UNC coins having multiple authentic chopmarks.
Yes, counterstamping coins has been common at times in Europe. In the early 17th C, Spanish maravedis were officially counterstamped, on at least 5 occasions, to increase their value, generally to double their initial value e.g. 4 maravedis to 8. In the first decades of the 19thC when there was a severe shortage of silver, due to the Napoleonic wars and the loss of silver from Spain's former territories in the Americas, the British govt counterstamped foreign silver (mainly Spanish 8 and 4 reales) with the king's head to allow them to be accepted as legal tender in the UK at 4/9d and 2 shllings and fourpence halfpenny
