Grading Question: Peace Dollar MS65 with Milk Spots

OK, I just saw a Peace dollar graded MS64 by CAC (a grader I respect, so this is not meant to bash) with the type of coffee-colored tarnish likely caused by dipping. This confirms my suspicion that the TPGs are mostly treating milk spots and tarnish from dipping as an acceptable form of tarnish, and this is obviously a business decision for the reason I mentioned earlier.

So, to reiterate, the TPGs are largely overlooking or ignoring evidence of dipping unless it is so overwhelming that it negatively impacts the overall appearance of the coin. I mention this because it is assumed by many that the milk spots are appearing after the grade - this may be true in some cases, but not all.

 

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I'm not sure if the milk spots are from dipping. I remember hearing the American Silver Eagle can get milk spots from a cleaning chemical the mint used. I also remember hearing that Peace Dollar planchets were treated with a chemical that prevents toning. Maybe this is what also causes most of the milk spots we see? Morgan Dollars get dipped a lot (maybe even more than Peace Dollars), but I haven't seen nearly as many Morgans with milk spots. I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject of dipping and milk spots though. Anyone with more experience want to chime in?

 

I don't think you're naive. I just learned of the acidic cleaning and water bath of blanks, but I think, given that dipping was and is so widespread among silver dollars, as well as other environmental possibilities, the probability leans to post-mint handling or care. I'm not an expert; I'm just asking questions because as this thread shows, many collectors believe milk spots should dock from a grade, and the scary thing is they could in theory appear or get worse after a coin is slabbed. In the case of your coin, it looks great and I don't think the spot detracts much if at all.

 

This is a good point, and perhaps more clarification is needed by experts. Maybe some of my assumptions are off - maybe it is a matter of how the Peace dollars were minted. I haven't looked at Morgan dollars in a long time because my interest has switched from Morgan dollars to Peace dollars as I view the face on the Peace dollar as more aesthetic - it's more of what would be called in anthropology dolichocephalic (narrow face) rather than brachycephalic (wide face), which I personally regard as generally better for women (uh oh - I'll stop right here).

 

I'm looking for it now. It's tough because I've looked at dozens of Peace dollars to investigate the milk spot issue, and eBay doesn't appear to record each visit under "recently viewed." eBay is a bit buggy at times. However, I'm willing to admit I'm no expert on the milk spot issue and am willing to be corrected.

Update: I haven't found the coin after searching for 10 minutes, but I recall it had toning that looked like liquid (like a spill or splash). It's very possible that this is environmental and possibly came from humidity rather than dipping, or that the grader found it to be eye-pleasing.

 

So, some of what you are seeing is most likely areas of heavy toning, when you remove tarnish/toning you are removing metal and luster. Before some of these coins were dipped. I would imagine that those areas of spotting you are seeing now, were heavily and deeply toned near terminal. The tarnish was so embedded into the metal, that the coins original luster is gone.

Some areas could be struck thru some type of minor debris. It's just not common to see, at least since I have been a collector.

 

It would be nice to hear from someone that knows Peace Dollars better but I have also heard about the planchets being different from Morgans. That is one of the explanations for why Morgans tone more vividly than Peace Dollars.

 

OK, I found it! OK, maybe I am wrong and my speculation has meandered a bit, but like I said I have nothing against the TPGs and only wish to understand the nature of the milk spots Peace dollars are susceptible to and how they might affect the grade. Tell me if you think this toning on the obverse is weird:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/198250407595

It is me or does it look like it has a liquid shape throughout? I don't think I've seen this type of toning on a Morgan, but it looks somewhat unnatural to me. Let me know what you think - I am open to correction.

 

Yes, I think this thread could be useful to flesh out some of the differences between the two coins, and why milk spots appear much more prevalent on Peace dollars. This is a clue that to some extent it's due to differences at the mint.

 

I haven't ever read, I don't think, a thread on Milk spots/peace dollars.

 

I have seen that type of toning on Peace Dollars before and it is considered "original" or "market acceptable" by the grading companies. I am not a fan but some people like these and even pay a slight premium. I like the more vivid colors when it comes to toning.

 

I am increasingly leaning toward differences at the mint as the primary reason for these milk spots on Peace dollars, which essentially exonerates the TPGs (so PCGS, NGC, CAC, and others - you are all doing a fine job, in my view). However, it's clear that some types of toning or spotting are more questionable - this leads to subjectivity among collectors and graders. Also, it doesn't seem to have ever been clarified as to whether these milk spots affect the grade, and if so how much. The real problem lies in that a coin can get graded and slabbed, and potentially may deteriorate within the slab under what are regarded as acceptable environmental conditions. This is a bit of nerding out though - a bit technical.

 

I am willing to change my views when presented with evidence and/or logic showing that I need to adjust. So while the consensus is that the coin at the beginning of the thread was perhaps dipped improperly and later showed milk spots, it's also possible that it simply developed milk spots due to the way it was minted. This type of spotting is prevalent on Peace dollars - I don't have a percentage, but it is probably not the majority but not a tiny percent either. For now, the issue is a bit of a mystery.

 

I asked both ChatGPT and Perplexity to explain these milk spots, and interestingly this thread was cited by Perplexity (proving that this topic was very much needed). Both chatbots suggest it's due to the cleaning and rinsing of the blanks at the mint. Here's something ChatGPT mentioned that makes some sense to me: the Peace dollars were generally minted decades after the Morgan dollars, so over time the method of minting had changed to a more modern one involving new chemicals. You'll notice that milk spots are especially common in more modern bullion like, say, Canadian Maple Leafs. The Peace dollars fit into this "modern" category more than the Morgan dollars, many of which were minted in the 19th century.

According to ChatGPT, the main suspect appears to be silver chloride, accidentally deposited during the rinsing of the blanks (seemingly with contaminated water). Other suspects are detergents, salts in the cleaning, and then potentially other contaminants in the cleaning or production.

Update: ChatGPT then engaged in an argument with me (in another session while trying to get clarification on the chemistry) suggesting these spots are likely from post-mint handling or care, which, as I've determined, is implausible because if that were true we would see just as much milk spots on Morgan dollars, which we don't see. I got fed up with it and closed it.