Grading Question: Peace Dollar MS65 with Milk Spots

I saw this gorgeous 1923 Peace dollar graded MS65 in an NGC slab on eBay and I searched for an answer as to how or if the milk spots on the obverse affect the grade. This appears to have been dipped improperly, but not in a way that significantly detracts from its aesthetic appeal. It's pleasing to the eye. I wonder if the milk spots have worsened over time, given that it's an older holder, or if the spots were likely just ignored by the grader at NGC. So my question is: do milk spots affect the grade of Peace dollars, or other non-bullion coins?

 

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Milk spots can impact the grade (make it lower). The example you found I would guess was dipped improperly and the spots developed after the coin was slabbed. I don't think it would have received the MS 65 grade with those spots.

 

Your response makes sense and may explain why the coin seems a bit discounted. So the warning about dipped coins showing defects years later has merit, but this is an issue that by no means affects all of even most dipped coins (since most silver dollars have likely been dipped). I suppose this might tilt savvy buyers who like blast white coins toward older holders to ensure no spotting has occurred after a "test" period. It's possible, if the milk spots may appear years later, that a brand new holder has not aged enough to reflect the true grade of a coin.

 

Thats a fairly common slab, I agree that it is left over residue.
My opinion on raw blast white silver dollars, is that they rarely occur in actual mint state anymore. Most have been sent to the slider grade because of the dip.

 

So my follow-up question for anyone who wants to chime in is how much of a penalty or deduction do the spots give the coin? So if it would be an MS65 minus the spots, is it now an MS64 or MS63? Will the spots get worse over time, or will they stabilize? This type of spotting is not uncommon on silver dollars - I just saw an MS66 with a minor spot that I was close to buying, but this thread thankfully made me think twice. These spots are something Peace dollar fans should be on the lookout for, especially when buying in higher grades.

 

Sounds like the is coin a was a dipped and not rinsed correctly. Milk spots worsen over time and they do lower the grade of the coin. I doubt this coin would have graded a 65 if cracked and resubmitted.

 

Yes, it looks like it was a sloppy job (not by the seller but rather the guy who dipped the coin). What's crazy is that I had a hard time finding an answer to this question, so this will help provide clarity and a warning for buyers of slabbed coins. My conclusion, if these spots develop after coins are slabbed, is that newer slabs could be a risk.

 

Actually, milk spots are common on silver dollars, and I just saw another Peace dollar in a brand new (or relatively new) PCGS MS65 slab with obvious milk spots on both the obverse and reverse, and it looks so bad on the reverse that it looks like a giant drip or leak. I won't post a link because the last thing I want to do is antagonize sellers who are just trying to make a living (this is not an attack on the sellers, by the way). So it looks to me like the milk spots may be getting ignored by some graders, though it's possible, again, the spots are showing after the coins are slabbed, even with newer slabs. It also looks to me like buyers are largely ignoring the milk spots based on their interest in these coins.

 

The milk spots are the problem, not the slab. The coin can be spotless, graded and then slabbed. A short time later the milk spots appear. It’s from an improper rinse after dipping that causes them. Once exposed to air the spots start to show but it’s in the slab so the process is slow to develop. The slab slows the process but it can’t stop it.

 

It looks to me, thus far from inspecting older holders, that these milk spots may eventually change in color and be regarded similar to tarnish that does not etch into the metal. Because it does not etch into the metal, it is not generally seen as a problem. Also, given that these milk spots are common on graded coins and nobody really talks about this (at least according to my searches), it seems the market may not really care. Given how widespread dipping is - the "juicing" of the hobby - I wonder if TPGs are ignoring them and treating them as toning. The more I investigate this the more widespread I see this issue, and it seems almost everyone is shrugging their shoulders like they just don't care.

 

I suspect a large percentage of silver dollars were improperly dipped over the decades, and it has been a business decision to not make a fuss out of it. So milk spots = toning in practice. If milk spots were to be penalized, it would mean a large percentage of graded coins, especially Peace dollars, are overgraded.

 

I had a lovely Type 1 SLQ that had a spot of dip residue that became more and more prevalent over the years. I finally sold it before it got any worse so from my experience, dip residue can worsen over time. I too believe those spots weren’t apparent at the time the coin was slabbed.

 

Thanks for relating your experience. The issue as I see it is that I am noticing these milk spots in newer slabs, indicating that the TPGs may be treating them as toning. My impression is that this is a topic being brushed under the carpet in the hobby because, let's be honest, dipping is to coin collecting what juicing is to sports - it's too prevalent to get rid of, so the next option is to ignore it or pretend it does not exist. Too much business would be interrupted if people started to say a large percentage of MS65 Peace dollars are overgraded. It would undermine the business part of the hobby.

 

That may very well be. Fact is TPG standards have dropped in recent years. Been the topic of many discussions, but it is a well known fact. One of the reasons early slabs are in such high demand…… But then you also have to consider that it was once perfectly acceptable to make your coin more “eye appealing”.

 

Just to be clear, I am not moralistic as far as how the TPGs operate. I understand they have to make money, so to me the way they operate is not a controversy. I guess personally I take the middle ground: I am all for dipping if done correctly. In my view, silver coins with milk spots should be treated as maybe lower-end for the grade. However, as I have acknowledged, a coin with milk spots can still be visually appealing. In my view, the coin I linked to at the top of the thread is a visually-appealing MS64 or lower-tier MS65.

 

In my opinion, it's an MS-64 even if it didn't have milk spots.

 

Many blast white coins have been dipped and many were done properly. It is the ones that were done improperly that have the spots show up-sometimes it takes a but of time and other times it shows up soon after slabbing.

And it is a benefit of older holders that the coin is more stable. The same can be a "safer" way to buy blast white coins.

 

The answer is "it depends" (not a great answer, I know).
Smaller spots might be ignored or spots on lower graded coins can have little to no penalty. However, a spot on something that is otherwise MS 67, could penalize the coin a point or two. When there is excessive spotting, it can even push the coin to a details grade (I have seen some labeled "stained").

There are also different spots-some do look like toning and it might not figure into the grade. Other spots look like staining or lower the eye appeal and thus lower the grade.

 

If you really want to see a blast white coin with milk like spots, look at a coin that was sneezed on.

 

The problem that I see as I review higher-grade lustrous Peace dollars on eBay is that milk spots are pervasive - a high percentage of them appear to have them, or at least higher than is admitted. Over time these spots can turn into a yellowish-brownish color that looks a bit unnatural - similar to a coffee spill on the coin. It's obvious to me that TPGs must downplay the problem, because by acknowledging it they must admit their slabs are not the guarantee of a grade that people believe them to be. Also, because such a large percentage of silver dollars have been dipped, I think if this issue is openly addressed it may end up very stressful to people who've spent enormous sums of money investing in silver dollars. To me, this topic is similar to the steroids issue in baseball in the 1990s - downplay, avoid, and keep hush hush. I guess a takeaway from this is to be on the lookout for coins that look particularly lustrous and to avoid any evidence of spotting as much as possible, and to perhaps be willing to buy slightly toned coins or coins in older holders that do not show such problems.