New Republican Fouree

I stopped at a local dealer recently and stumbled onto this Fouree .

L. Sulla. 81 BC. AR Denarius FOUREE (3.2 gm, 18 mm).
Uncertain mint. Diademed head of Venus right,
wearing earring and pearl necklace / Double
cornucopiae filled with fruit and flowers, bound
with fillet; Q below. Crawford 375/2; Sydenham 755

I am always fascinated by the "cheaters" in ancient times.

Not that it's wildly important, but Wildwinds notes this coin as 81 BC. I looked at the Wikipedia list of moneyers and Sulla was noted as 84-83 BC. Any thoughts on this?

 

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Nice @NormW. Yep, the cheaters have lived with us forever.

 

Very cool fourree!! Here's my 'official' version with the date of 81 BC:

L. Cornelius Sulla Felix, as Dictator, AR Denarius. Italy, 81 BC. Diademed head of Venus right, wearing single-pendant earring and necklace / Filleted double cornucopiae; Q below. Crawford 75/2; Sydenham 755; Cornelia 33. 3.53g, 20mm, 12h.

 

Sulla, a cheater? Possibly. This coin is one of the designs attributed to the period after Sulla defeated the Marian party and was handing out food or cash to Romans impacted during the wars. These coins don't bear Sulla's name and many of the ones seen strike me as looking like the metal might be lower quality than the average for the day. I wonder if Crawford had something to do with the 81BC suggestion. Someone here who specializes in RR should be able to straighten out this one but, in general, we need to remember that many dates of RR coins have been 'discussed' or pushed one way or the other based on hoard evidence. A new find of thousands of coins can add evidence to the order of issues based on what is present and what is missing. Much of what we 'know' is based on studies and best guesses. When you consider some of the things I was taught in school science classes, numismatics is not alone in this regard.

 

A neat fouree

 

Very nice looking Fouree. Looks to have a nice tone too, which isn't seen often on those things.

 

Crawford calls it 81 B.C. but in the commentary mentions he wants to do little more than connect it with general Sullan operations in the period rather than some specific event. His main evidence for placing it in 81 B.C. is its absence from the Capalbio and Bellicello hoards and inclusion of multiple examples in the Carrara hoard. The Capalbio and Bellicello hoards include slightly earlier types like those of Quintus Antonius Balbus from 83-82 B.C. before Sulla had completed his return to Rome and both include examples of A. Postumius A. f. Sp. n. Albinus, thought to have been struck earlier in 81 B.C. but no examples of the otherwise-anonymous Sullan Venus/cornucopiae types with Q or the related EX SC types.

Now, it could just be a case of bad luck that the issue did not end up in the Capalbio and Bellicello hoards and maybe the dating should instead be considered 82-81 B.C. instead of being so firm on the 81 B.C. date, but there are many hoards of this period(a testament to the violence of the period) and as far as I can see, all point to this being an issue of 82-81 B.C. shortly after Sulla's return to Rome.

 

I have nothing to add to red_spork's explanation. My example of the OP type, not plated:

 

I think that Norm might be using the word "cheater" in reference to his coin being a fouree, rather than Sulla being a "cheater"

 

Victor is correct. I meant that the coin was made by a cheater. I am amused by the human nature of it. I have several Fouree's. My oldest is an Ephesus honey bee Fouree, about 3-400 BC. I'd be willing to bet that a week after the first electrum coins were minted in 700 BC, some one was figuring out the angles and counterfeiting.

By the way, thanks to everyone who posted on this thread. Very interesting.

 

On another note, what do you all think the fair market value is for my coin? I did not find any in CNG's archive.

 

Well @NormW, now that the dating has been addressed, I thought you might find this example interesting---especially as how it alludes to Sulla's 'cheating nature':

"The moneyer of this coin was the son of the dictator Sulla. The reverse commemorates one of the most important events of his father’s early career: the capture of Jugurtha. Jugurtha was a Numidian prince who had served in the Roman auxiliary cavalry, but who had come to blows with the Romans. Metellus Numidicus was given command to defeat Jugurtha, but Jugurtha was proving a wily adversary and through several campaigning seasons Numidicus was unable to defeat him. In 107 BC one of his legates, Marius, who disagreed with Numidicus’ strategy for prosecuting the war, gained the consulship and also command in Numidia. However, Jugurtha was proving just as slippery for Marius as he had been for Numidicus. One of Marius’ junior officers was Sulla, and he managed to capture Jugurtha through a ruse. He invited both Jugurtha and Bocchus, the King of Mauretania and Jugurtha’s father-in-law, to a meeting. In advance of the meeting he had convinced Bocchus to betray Jugurtha, and when Jugurtha arrived unarmed his attendants were ambushed and Jugurtha was captured. Bocchus immediately handed him over to Sulla. Sulla had a signet ring engraved showing the event, and the reverse of this coin may be a direct copy of that signet ring."


Faustus Cornelius Sulla. AR Denarius (18-19 mm, 3.44 g). Rome, 56 BC.
Obv. FAVSTVS , diademed and draped bust of Diana right, crescent above, lituus behind.
Rev. FELIX , Sulla seated left on raised platform between King Bocchus of Mauretania on left, presenting him with wreath, and King Jugurtha of Numidia on right, hands bound behind him, both kneeling.

 

There are 25 on CNG's archives.

Search for Sulla 375

Barry Murphy

 

25 1/2? https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=317241
Good to hear from you, Barry.

The CNG resource is a wonderful gift to us all. If I hadn't already spent so much there this year I'd feel obligated to bid more. The problem with all the online resources (not just CNG) is that they do not tell us what exists but what sells for a relatively high minimum price. This post makes me wonder how many fourrees existed for every 100 official coins and how many of them remain. I had not seen this one in fourree before but I do not go out of my way to see Republicans good or bad. I have seen fourree EID MAR denarii. I doubt there ever will be a really comprehensive study of unofficial plated or solid coins and I don't see how such a study could be made considering how many are known by one or, at most, a few examples. I remain amazed at what some people today are paying for fourrees but attracting the attention of the scholars will be quite another matter.

 

I did see the 25 listings you noted, but none of them are fouree counterfeits. What I'm wondering is what my fouree coin is worth.

 

The simple answer is 'whatever the market will bear'

I have a few fourre's and I consider them to be worth significantly less than any comparative type and grade of the 'official' version. Basically, that means I may be willing to pay 1/3 or 1/2 (hopefully even less) of what the 'genuine' example might demand depending upon what appeals to me most about that specific fourree---but that's just my personal approach to them. Basically, I consider them to be cool 'historical curiosities' and expect the price to reflect that.

 

Your view is a lot like my own. I paid $50 a little more than I would normally pay because the dealer in question didn't pick up on it (he's not an exclusive ancient dealer) and he has made me some good deals in the past.

 

that's a fairly good estimate on fourees Mikey i'd figure

 

I only have a couple fourees (I believe from French for "stuffed")... Both were kindly given to me when I bought other coins. Personally, I have no interest in pursuing them as a collectible. I have a couple, and that is good for me.

 

Counterfeiting was invented the day after money was invented.