When is a coin not a coin?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by sakata, Mar 3, 2017.

  1. sakata

    sakata Devil's Advocate

    So let's play devil's advocate.

    It seems like these days every time I read the latest copy of World Coin News there is some "coin" shown which, too put it politely, stretches my imagination as to what a coin should be. In the last few months there was one shaped like a ukelele, another was in the shape of an alligator eye with the eye staring out from the middle of a blue oval. Both, I think, came from somewhere in the Pacific. Others may disagree but to me these are not coins. At best, they are medals with a value stamped on them to give them validity. At worst they are chunks of overpriced metal.

    So what is a coin to you? To me it should be something which has the potential, if not actuality, of being used in circulation to make a purchase. Is anyone ever going to walk down to the market and pay for their groceries with a ukelele shaped junk of metal? This also exludes all bullion coins. Would anyone ever use a silver eagle to pay for a cup of coffee? Of course not, it is worth more as a lump of silver than its face value of $1. It is simply a piece of silver bullion which has been legitimized by giving it a nominal value.

    Proof coins? Probably not if the premium is large unless I think they will maintain a premium value. Reverse proofs? A waste of money. Commemorative coins from the various world mints? Many of them have never seen the country they were minted for and certainly would not be used in a purchase? Would any of you ever walk to the supermarket and pay with a commemorative US dollar which you paid $50 for? While I suppose it is technically possible so this makes it borderline as a coin. Many commemoratives worldwide as not even legal tender.

    So, again, what is a coin to you? If it is in the Standard Catalog of Circulating Coins then it can be considered a coin. Most coins from earlier years are legitimately coins. It is really only in the last couple of generations that we have had this plethora of pseudo-coins. I will have some interest in any coin which may have been used for a purchase. I will buy bullion coins for their metal content but not because they are coins. I will not have a lot of interest in anything else.
     
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  3. Clawcoins

    Clawcoins Damaging Coins Daily

    A coin would be some form of legal tender at some point in time/history and be identified as such with a denomination (except the really old coins which may not have denominations). At least to me.

    everything else a medal.
    to each their own though. It's an advertisers world out there to sell.
     
  4. BostonCoins

    BostonCoins Well-Known Member

    I'll second @Clawcoins sentiment. It must be a "Legal Tender" of the government that issues it.

    All other things produced to replicate a "coin" by shape, design or designation should be considered tokens in my opinion.

    Most recently, the Carr issues really have upset me. I realize these are fantasy pieces (such as the 64' Peace or 64' Morgan), however, without any stamping on the token that states it's not real, this is going to fool someone in the future that does not know coins! I think it's a shame! I rate the Carr pieces in the same category as the chinese fakes we see in our hobby. They are produced to fool people. Granted, knowledgeable collectors know the difference, and appreciate the fantasy and art. However, IMO, I really think the Carr pieces should be stamped in some way noting they are NOT legal tender.
     
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  5. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    There have been numerous times when I have found an SAE or proof coin in circulation at a local convenience or grocery store. I've yet to find a baseball glove. Only time will tell.

    Chris
     
  6. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    A lot of people would completely disagree with this.

    False and I'll leave it at that. Why people always insert this into threads that have nothing to do with it I will never understand.
     
  7. ewomack

    ewomack 魚の下着

    This rather dull but precise definition says a lot:

    Coin: a flat, typically round piece of metal with an official stamp, used as money.

    The "typically" is important here because the world has also seen square, oblong, elliptical, polygonal, animal-shaped, guitar-shaped and just about any shape one can imagine coins made out of countless types of material, even ceramics.

    I would say that if you can spend it, whether you actually would or not, and it's not a bill, then it's likely a coin.

    You could bring a proof coin to a store and spend it. You may have trouble spending a commemorative coin, but most of them have legal tender status, as do many bullion issues. Though, as already suggested, it wouldn't exactly qualify as wise money management to use a Silver Eagle to buy $1 worth of stuff, much less to use a gold eagle for a $50 purchase. But supposedly, so I've read and heard, they are legal tender, which seems to make them coins.

    Sadly, people seem to have enough trouble using $2 bills in the US, so who knows what would happen if someone tried to spend a Mark Twain commemorative? The thought alone gives me hives.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  8. BostonCoins

    BostonCoins Well-Known Member

    Though I appreciate your input, I think you are mistaken. I think this fits perfectly into the discussion at hand. As the OP stated, playing devils advocate, we are trying to define what a "coin" is. If you believe, as I do, that only legal issue tender qualifies, then any US coin issues (proof, special strike, etc...) can be considered a coin. With that being said, anything produced to imitate actual coins can be an issue from hobbyists to the general public with little to no information on the subject. There were laws passed that stated all coins issued that imitated or copied actual coin designs were to be stamped as a copy as to not confuse people. My example I chose to "pick on" were the Carr designs. He technically dodges the "copy" issue by issuing a Peace dollar that never existed. Yet, you show that 64 Peace and a 21 Peace to a young collector, and it's quite likely the person will think BOTH are real. That was my issue.
     
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  9. Tinpot

    Tinpot Well-Known Member

    You've found silver American eagles? Wow, how many?
     
  10. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    At least three that I can remember. I can only assume that someone was having a nicotine fit. I know because I've been there. No, I never used collectible coins to buy cigarettes, but I have had to roll some change from a junk jar. Thank God I quit smoking a couple of years ago.

    Chris
     
  11. sakata

    sakata Devil's Advocate

    Give the strange looks I sometimes get when trying to spent a half dollar or presidential dollar I have to wonder how anyone could even get an ASE accepted - unless by someone like yourself who knows what it is.
     
  12. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Except they're sold as exonumia/tokens specifically stating they aren't legal tender and slabbed as tokens. Hes been doing this for many years it didn't just start. I consider them coins only because I differentiate between coins and money. Money is legal tender to me, coins are anything that looks like a coin. I would use the proper terms in a conversation and I know my view is out of the norm but I don't have legal tender as a requirement for what I consider a coin to be and consider bullion coins as well.
     
  13. Muzyck

    Muzyck Rabbits!

    For "coins" I include any "legal tender" , non circulating "NCLT" issues created by government agencies and even tokens or objects that were used for local trade (think merchant tokens, authentic Siam gaming tokens, Notgeld, US depression era tax tokens, etc.).

    I don't consider limited edition fantasy issues made by private parties for collectors... "coins".
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  14. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Yeah, you'd have to give an exemption to ancient coins. Some ancients do have a mark of value to identify what denomination it is. For example, this Republican denarius has an X on the obverse (right below Roma's chin) to identify that it is worth ten Roman Asses. An As was a small bronze coin worth only 1/10th of a denarius and 4/10th of a sestertius.

    M Junius Silanus denarius RR.jpg

    However, this other Roman denarius, also from the era of the Republic, has no mark of value. However, the weights are identical and contained just about the same amount of silver. Ancient people would have understood that it was worth the same as the denarii with the X mark and would have circulated just the same.

    M. Fonteius AR Denarius.jpg
     
  15. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    In addition to what @Sallent says about ancient coins: What constitutes a coin and what is money is hotly debated. Many say coins were invented in ancient Lydia, but others will say ancient China, where the use of 'money' pre-dates anything in use by the west. The image below illustrates various types which were used as money, but many may not say they were coins. To each their own. But, to the original topic, no, I dont consider the OP items as being coins really. They are created and marketed to the numismatic community and not intended to circulate, so they are not coins or money really. Just a novelty item.

    3430789.jpg
     
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  16. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    A clerk doesn't have to know anything about numismatics. All they need to know is that it has "ONE DOLLAR" and a date on it. Granted, there are some real dummies out there, but most of them call the cops when they get a $2 bill.

    Chris
     
  17. heavycam.monstervam

    heavycam.monstervam Outlaw Trucker & Coin Hillbilly

     
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  18. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    And if someone who does not know coins accepts one at its marked face value, there's been no fraud, because it is overstruck on a legally-issued Peace or Morgan dollar. A dollar, "damaged" if you will, has changed hands. Film at 11.
     
  19. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Not to mention they'll have just made a lot of money on it
     
  20. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Forum rules prohibit me from offering full face value to take Carr restrikes off the hands of anyone worried about them. ;)
     
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  21. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist


    I would add one thing to that definition "intended to be" inserted before the word used.

    Stamped pieces of metal struck for sale and not intended to be used as money I don't consider coins. Whether they have a denomination or not.

    Does that mean that Large cents did not become coins until 1864 and half cents weren't coins until 1965? Trade dollars stopped being coin in 1876 (even though they were still being struck) and then suddenly became coins again in 1965?

    Would you consider Connecticut, Vermont, and Massachusetts coppers to be coins? What about the Fugio cent? None of those were ever legal tender
     
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