I have some doubts because the "black" patina isn't original, it's a color applied on the coin , and the color still stuck on fingers if you pass it on the coin. Another doubt comes from the little bubbles on the surface, a symptom of a fuse coin Finally, there are some little differences between little details with some other 1711 minted ducatons. Anyone can help me here?
Given what you say about the color, and the the pictures of the coin, well there's not much doubt in my mind that it's a fake.
let me say that the color can be applied just to reform the patina (maybe the coin was cleaned and washed) but about the coin itself what you can say?
http://www.nederlandsemunten.nl/Vir...s/VOC/De_Liefde/zilveren_rijder_de_liefde.htmIts genuine , all dutch 1711 ducatons come from the VOC ""de Liefde"" (the Love) the ship went down in 1711 in the North Sea (Shetland Islands) most of the coins suffered from 250 years on the bottum of the sea.
I can say that the only Silver Rider's, that date and mint, with the multi-petaled floret after TRAI - were double weight. So unless that coin is double weight, well that's pretty much the last nail in the coffin in my opinion. And even if is double weight, it still looks like a cast coin to me. edit - if the post directly above mine is true, I could accept salt water damage explaining the porosity. But I still have to wonder about the weight, including the one posted by Andres since it has the same floret.
rastan, the diameter/size of 42mm and the weight of 33 gram are OK. as far as I know there are no piedforts/double weight coins struck in 1711 , piedforts were minted in 1712 - 1715 - 1716 etc. but they were never part of VOC ship cargo's. My coin is the same weight and size. all these 1711 ducatons are marked TRAI with a rose behind it. My conclusion its a Original silver ducaton from the VOC shipwreck de Liefde , catalog number KM 83.1 and there are many around.
Well Andres2, many thanks, i'm an absolute beginner in this kind of coins and i was so doubtful about it because of the "blackish" patina... what do you think about that? is it strange don't you think? i think it's a color used to age the coin...
Not strange, some sellers apply shoepolish on their coins or other stuff to improve the details of the coin. If you dont like it, first try to remove it with soap and hot water , gently use a piece of wet cleaning paper, if it doesn't come off , try white spirit. take care not to rub it hard , that will leave an ugly high gloss shine on the surface of your coin. If some of the stuff remains, just leave it there, and dry the coin on a radiator afterwards.
Well, all I can say is Delmonte has 2 coins listed for the time period Utrecht mint - #1031 and #1031a. 1031 is a normal silver rider, but no rosette after TRAI. 1031a is a double weight silver rider and it has a rosette after TRAI. That said, Delmonte's book The Silver Benelux was published in 1967 and the de Liefde was not salvaged, the first time until the late '60s, and then later which is when they found most of the coins, about 3000 of them. So perhaps that explains the discrepancies. Or, it could just be that Delmonte made a mistake. He sure made enough of them in the The Gold Benelux regarding the Netherlands gold ducats. Bottom line, since my initial post I've checked all examples I could find of the coins from the de Liefde, and they are all like the OP's coin, and as Andres describes.
well what to say more here ... i was so happy to read EVERYTHING in this thread guys, you made me love more that coin thanks to all of you!
According to the Krause Catalogue, KM#83.1 Netherlands-Utrecht Ducatons were struck with dates from 1709-1745. Does anyone have some images of any AU or UNC (only) KM#83.1 coins that are NOT DATED 1711? Thanks in advance
