Caligula Sestertius in an Upcoming Auction

Ahahaha, Gandalf => I actually meant the "tooled" examples were bad

=> your sweet coins always rock, my friend

cheers

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

LOL, nooooo... I was talking about my dating habits when I was in University...

 

Tooled VF coins will sell for more than untooled fines. As long as this is true we will be in danger of running out of nice fines. I sold mine in 1974. I hope he is still as when I last saw him but that is not a guarantee.

 

De-stressed now. Thanks all.

 

Awesome => Mentor, it's always very cool to see your cool ol' foil examples

 

Should I buy this Hadrian sestertius ? I dont own a tooled coin yet.(as far as I know)
$30 will probably buy it.

 

For $30? Yeah, I would buy it. But no more than that.

 

Nah, I wouldn't buy a tooled coin ... it'll always be the coin that you post as "sure, it's tooled, but it only cost me $30" (that coin would have zero-love in my collection)

 

Then there are provincials of Caligula where the celators had so little artistic ability that the coins could benefit from some tooling


Roman provincial AE 28
Carthago Nova, Spain
28 mm, 11.17 gm
Obv: C. CAESAR AVG. GERMANIC. IMP. P.M. TR.P. COS., laureate head of Caligula, r.
Rev: CN. ATEL. FLAC. CN. POM. FLAC. II. VIR. Q.V.I.N.C., head of Salus (some attribute to Caesonia, wife of Calligula) r., SAL AVG across field.
Refs: SGI 419; Heiss 272, 35; Cohen 247, 1; RPC 1, 185; SNG Cop 503.

 

I can understand this criticism fully. I personally would never advise a client to buy an overly tooled and smoothed coin, however I would like to point out something that I find interesting. The first is that tooling and smoothing in the Renaissance and until recent times (perhaps a 100 years ago or so) was not considered to be a negative thing. It was an improvement on an ancient coin. We restore paintings that have damage and that doesn't make them less valuable. So why do we look down on coins that are tooled and smoothed? I'm NOT advocating for this please understand, I'm just interested by the change in mentality. The other thing is that these coins ARE still authentic. So I imagine that some people who want an authentic coin also are interesting in having the best example possible. I myself just purchased a Galba for my stock in the recent DNW auction. It does have some smoothing on it but I couldn't walk away from it because it has a pedigree that is beyond wonderful (C.S. Bement Collection, Naville Auction VIII (Lucerne), 25-8 June 1924, lot 683; E.G. Spencer-Churchill Collection, Ars Classica Auction XIII (Lucerne), 27-9 June 1928, lot 1606; bt Spink May 1938). I figure if the coin is good enough for C.S. Bement and E.G. Spencer-Churchill then it is good enough for me
Again, I just want to reiterate that when I advise my clients I always would opt not to buy a heavily tooled or smoothed coin.

 

Minor smoothing has never been an issue for me, and most of my AE coins exhibit smoothing to some extent. The Galba to which you refer doesn't appear to be tooled and the amount of smoothing is (for my personal tastes) eminently acceptable. So it appears we're pretty much in agreement on this topic.

The analogy of "We restore paintings that have damage and that doesn't make them less valuable. So why do we look down on coins that are tooled and smoothed?" has always been a VERY interesting potential discussion topic for me. My thought about this topic is that paintings were not made to be circulated and subject to normal wear and tear, and original oils are unique. Repairing and restoring them is understandable.

Coins, on the other hand, are made explicitly to be circulated and thus subject to wear and tear, so it's natural that less-circulated, better-condition coins will be more highly prized. Coins' lack of uniqueness -- thousands of coins are struck from exactly the same die-pair -- makes collecting them very different from acquiring original works of art. Tooling a coin is thus very different from restoring an original painting.

Not sure I articulated my thoughts very well, but this is why I distinguish restoring art from re-engraving coins.

 

My wife and I enjoy a TV art series called Raiders of the Lost Art. The series focuses on paintings that have been lost or stolen and recovered or things discovered that may not have ever been known to exist. Often we hear tales of restorations, excessive cleanings and various thing I might not think appropriate for something expected to sell for a few million. One I liked was a Vermeer that had been removed from its original stretcher and placed on a larger one with the newly exposed canvas painted in by the owners best Vermeer style hand. This would be a bit like me setting a sestertius in a brass ring and carving it into a medallion. Another case talked about a forger who had been painting 'lost' replicas and 'original' Vermeers fooling experts and high level Nazis (Hermann Goering!). He was discovered when he testified against himself and even demonstrated his ability to paint a lost work because a conviction of forgery was a lesser charge than consorting with Goering in post WWII Europe.

All this shows that the rules for paintings and the rules for coins differ. What is the same is that there are more people with money to buy $10k coins or $10million paintings than there are pieces that will satisfy their requirements. We fans of the ancient world would love to have Roman paintings with not so much as a chip in the paint but most of us know better than to accept such things as possible. 300 year old paintings are now at a point that they require 'services' but there are not as many of them without rips and tears as required by the market. Will we be in that place with coins soon? The obsession with collecting only MS grade coins is leading us in that direction as more and more people demand coins that look like they were made yesterday. I only wish there were a magic fluid dip that could wash away the modifications to coins like the OP. I know I would like it better that way.

 

I can agree with that assessment on my thoughts about paintings. This is true.
The interesting thing with my Galba was that I got viewing notes from someone that was there and they didn't notate the smoothing on the coin in the auction catalog. I'm very leery to buy coins without seeing them in hand. That said, I really like the coin. I paid way too much for it but I also don't get many opportunities like that to get a nice bronze with a wonderful pedigree. Thanks for your note! We do see the same I believe.

 

Often paintings are restored because of active damage. For instance, humidity affecting frescos.

I would not mind work on coins to prevent further damage, such as corrosion. Or, if somebody could inject a solution to stop a flan crack from evolving. But, 'enhanced' letters or portraits - nope.

 

While this appears to be true about modern coin collecting, I'm not sure I'd agree that it's an accurate characterization of ancient coin collecting.

All things being equal, a collector will always try to buy the highest condition coin his/her budget permits. If you find an EF coin you're seeking, within your budget for that coin, it defies logic to buy a VF coin for the same price, or even less. But I think collectors of ancient coins like their hobby for fundamentally different reasons from collectors of modern coins, and while condition of those coins is an important factor, it's not an obsession.

 

It's personal preference, obviously (to each, his own) ... respect

... but lately, I tend to stay away from any seller's description that states: light smoothing, tooling and/or cleaning marks (ummm, where the cleaning marks are obviously intentional tooling marks) ...

Yah, I would rather have an acceptable number of small colourful-crusties on my coins, than have smoothing and/or tooling (I guess I am a fan of coins with a wee bit o' personality still on 'em)

 

for me depents how rare a coin is if it is cleaned i am all happy i have not a fake one

 

heavy cleaned and i am still to wait for a new one in the 5 years i bought this
finaly i can fotograph them feets lol

 

Update on the tooled cartoon-like Hadrian / Diana sestertius

Seller agreed with $30 incl shipment.

Heres the coin once more with another Hadrian / Diana which I believe is tooled too.
The difference is that my coin was done by an amateur and the second green one by a better skilled guy.
The fields are worn & pitted , but the beard of Hadrian looks like it was struck last year.(please enlarge)