canada 1859 large cent possibly brass help needed

ok so my friend sent me some canada large cents that she was givin from a friend years ago and
they were given by a grand mother. so my question is ? the large cent has never been cleaned and the other coins in the group i recieved all seem darker. i took pics but there not the best quality. tomorw ill take better pics in natural light. have a look and please let me know if this is possibl;y brass.for some reason it only let me load one pic so ill post more in the next reply have a look. the current pic has the 1859 on the far right on the coin stack.

 

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1859 canada possible brass cent continued

heres more pics

 

1859 canada large cent possible brass

another pic. seems i cant upload multiples for some reason

 

1859 canada large cent possible brass

another

 

just a note i know alot of people hate to see coins laid raw on the skin. sio i cut circles out to lay under neath the coin when laid on my hand of paper. so the salt in my skin dont touch them as well when laid on different surfaces. i was told just laying on my hand is a no no in the collecting world. so if you have any info what this coin may be made of please let me now. thanks again

 

A cent like this can range in anywhere between red and brown. I don't see any reason why the color would make me think it's brass. Weigh it.

 

well seeing most people say according to the other older posts on here theres no real way of telling brass from a regular coin. i thought maybe theres a chance. i guess you know moe than me. so how would i tell. is ther a weight difference between the brass and bronze or copper of what ever there composition are. thanks for thwe comment. i just thought it looked brassy colored. if i had already had an answer to my question i would not have posted that question. thanks again and what weight may i be looking for?

 

copper :weight 4.54 gr diameter: 25.4 mm
brass: weight 4.29 gr diameter: 25.75 mm

edit: That would be great if it's brass. They are pretty rare.

also: it is possible the color is from an old cleaning. Not saying yours is, but they do turn a brassy color when cleaned.

 

ok thanks ill weigh it today and post my result. i dont think it was cleaned. i know a friend of mine came by the other day and after i was telling him not to touch it picked it up and endind up droping it out on the concrete in the drive way. i wasnt very happy. it didnt do any damage that i could see but it rolled on the rim edge which opened the metal more visible in a few small spots.

 

That's what I thought. Cleaned coins are more common than brasses, so it's more probable that you brassy-looking coin was cleaned some time ago.

 

i dont think it was cleaned , but i could be wrong. as there is alot of crud built up on it.

 

Although I'm far from being an expert, I know cleaned coins retone. I found out when a lad

 

i weighed the coin today at the local pharmacy are i felt there scale would be accurate...it weigh 4.37 hum thats a different number. so i guess its probably not brass. is it worth sending it to a grading company? thoughts

 

Probably not.

 

Any coin with any wear is going to weigh less than 4.54g. There is no generic composition for brass. Some brasses weigh less than bronze and some are heavier. I have been an avid collector of Victoria large cents for 40 years and have more than 5000, over 600 of those 1859's. I have seen hundreds of coins that appear as does yours. It has been cleaned or exposed, either intentionally or unintentionally, to some type of oxidizing chemical agent. There are any number of different household agents that can do it ... so some time in the last 150 years, it was exposed to something. There is a relatively new electronic gizmo ($50,000 or more) that takes a shot and gives composition without actually taking a sample or sliver and 100% reliable. What has been done in the past is to take it outside in the sunlight and scratch the edge with a diamond preferably, but glass will work. Then look at the marks. If they are really yellowish (and not bronze that has been chemically exposed) then it COULD BE brass. Only a reputable TPG company that will certify it can call it "genuine". It is the opinion of nearly every Canadian large cent expert (me included) that there was never such a thing as a true "brass" circulating coin, although a trial or test/speciman piece is possible. The ones that have been termed brass are due to mixing problems with the alloys and planchets and were accidental, not intentional. We recently "shot" nearly 50 of large cents with the aforementioned gizmo, about half that had a possibilty of being brass due to color, and found not a single brass one. We also found the actual alloys from the electronic "reads" to be all over the map and no two the same. What has been called "brass" isn't .. it just depended upon an incorrect mixture or where in the pour crucible those planchets actually came from or when, since lighter material stayed at the top and heavier sank. I know two people who have "brass" cents that are certified by ICCS, but they don't want the coins retested. They were cert'd by Brian, using the diamond and sunlight test. Any incandescent or florescent light puts a tinge to the color of the scratches, and any metal that makes the scratches does the same. Anything retested and found not to be true brass has lost 99% of its value.

 

ok so i take it what i have is not whats sought after. wow thats a great response. so from what i gather is the big
pic is that heres no such thing as a brass cent and may people with a altered composition are paying for color only.
i really appriciate the response very informative. i really think the coin has not been cleaned as you would think the high spots would be clean but they arnt on most of the coin. and i did the scrath test. seems a brighter color underneath.thanks bill. and i assume what i have is no different from any other 1859 large cent. do you know from the pic what variety it is. so i can check it in the charlton guide, as well what grade you may think it to be. there is more detail if cleaned but i certainly wont clean it. thanks again

 

Victoria large cents are almost entirely graded from the obverse(portrait) side, with little attention to the Reverse side, except for marks/dings. Conversely, almost all the collectible 1859 varieties deal with the numerals in the date and the spacing/alignment. Yours is not a magnified or clear enough photo for me to tell which variety (if known) it actually is. Since the number 9 was hand-punched into each working die and it took 2-4 strikes of the hammer on the punch to complete the working die, there are as many "varieties" as there were dies used .. nearly 500 I'd guess. Yours appears to be a normal narrow 9, with the final digit "close". With the narow gap between the 5 & 9, it is possible that you will have evidence of a repunched 9 of some sort, but it's hard to tell. From the size of the gaps at leafs 2 and 7, it was late in the production run. Based upon the wear of the reverse, I'd say it is no better than VF-20, and probably F-12. BTW, I helped write the Victoria Large Cent Variety guide in the 2011 Charlton. If you have that edition, keep it, since they rotate denominations every year and Vickies won't show up again for 6-7 years. That 80 page section was well-researched and documented by 4-5 real experts(collectors) in the field. All of the photos are from our collections.

 

Bill,

I have just found a 1859 LC in my coin collection. I am wondering if it is brass but after reading your previous post if there anything specifically that I can look for?

My coin is weighing in at 4.3 (rounds up to the nearest) grams and is just larger than then an inch wide. There is also a small hole in the coin and it has not seemed to oxidize. The hole does not disturb the image or the writing. It is a brown circulated coin with some of the metal tone showing through.
It appears to be a 'narrow' 9 with the die crack through the leaf above the 'O'.

I would like to know your thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

 

I have two 1859 canadian one cent coins, one; :1859 narrow nine, uncirculated, brass weighing 4.3g and is exactly 25.75mm in diameter!

 

I have two 1859 canadian one cent coins, one; :1859 narrow nine, uncirculated, brass weighing 4.3g and is exactly 25.75mm in diameter! The other is a 1859 slightly used about a ms55 and is a wide 9 and is 4.4g and is 25.4 mm in diameter!